Author Topic: Focus on Fun  (Read 1518 times)

lucasjung

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Focus on Fun
« on: March 16, 2008, 06:23:05 am »
I've noticed several posts throughout these forums (mostly in the complaints department) by people who are not having fun playing PlaneShift.  Usually, they get shouted down by a chorus of people saying, "Everybody else seems to be having fun, so if you're not having fun, it's your fault for not getting engaged."  Well, I think that there is certainly some validity to that argument, but I also think that many of these "complainers" make some good points.  Because PlaneShift is a game, and the primary purpose of games is fun (not the only purpose, but certainly the main one), I wanted to start a discussion about what makes PlaneShift fun, and what parts of it really aren't as fun as they should be.  I thought about putting this in the complaints department, but I want the focus to be more positive than that.  I have three cardinal rules I would like everyone to follow in this thread:

1.) If you dislike something, don't mention it unless you can also name at least one specific step the developers can take to make it better.  Not perfect, just better.

2.) Leave technical faults out of this (we all know that the NPC conversation system needs serious work, as do monsters, etc.)

3.) Mention at least one positive thing.  If you can't think of anything positive about PlaneShift at all, then why are you even here?

So, to start off with, here are some things that I think are FUN about PlaneShift:
Interacting with real people as I RP.
Being able to gain significant experience and money solely by completing quests for NPCs, with no combat required. (I really like combat, but I also really like the fact that it's not central)

And some things that I think are NOT FUN about PlaneShift:
Drudgery: Fighting endless swarms of rats to gain experience is never fun, no matter who you are.  Likewise, spending half an hour of real world time running across empty landscapes between cities is never any fun.  Most especially, spending hours of time in the real world watching your character pick away at a virtual wall for virtual stones is never any fun. 

Solutions:
Lose the rats.  Seriously.  Start characters off with enough ability and equipment to take on real monsters.  I understand that there need to be weak monsters at the bottom of the progression, but killing one-eyed mutant sewer rats is still, well, killing sewer rats.  People play fantasy medieval roleplaying games so that they can be epic heroes.  Epic heroes don't work as exterminators.

Create some sort of rapid-transit system between population centers.  There are plenty of fantasy medieval-appropriate mechanisms for establishing this.  Set prices low enough that most players can afford to do it frequently, but high enough that some people will chose to go cross-country anyway.

Stop trying to balance the economy and let the economy balance itself.  This probably leaves many of you scratching your heads and saying, "Huh?"  Here's my proposal: have the server track player-to-player economic transactions.  Take a running average of player-to-player prices for goods, and then set the NPC-store price for each particular item slightly higher than the average price for the same item when a player sells it to another player (say, 120% or 130% of average player-market price).  Example: players are always selling lumps of iron to each other.  Imagine that the average price for these transactions on a particular day is 125 tria.  For that day, NPCs will charge 150 to 160 tria for a lump of iron, but will pay only 100 to 110 tria to buy one.  The next day, the average player-to-player price for a lump of iron is 110 tria, so NPCs buy at 130 to 140 tria and sell at 90 to 100 tria.
Also, eliminate the NPC-store stock limits on mundane items (lumps of ore, non-magical weapons, armor, and equipment, low-level glyphs, food, potions, etc).  Players will have a choice: they can either find another player to buy their goods from, or save time by paying the extra money to get what they need from an NPC instead of making the effort to find a player who is selling it.  If you find that too many people are shopping from NPCs, just increase the price multiplier for NPC goods until you get the balance you are looking for.
I'll admit that this is actually more complicated than it sounds at first.  If it seems really simple to you, consider this: how do you value the items in this transaction: Geoffrey trades three lumps of iron and two diamonds to Brunhilde in exchange for a sword and shield.  Believe it or not, there are ways to incorporate that kind of thing into your model, and they're pretty easy as long as you get a little help from a fellow named Laplace and another guy named Markov.  It involves some really BIG matrices, but this whole thing is running on computers, so that's not really a problem.

Final thought:
As I mentioned at the beginning of this post, "complainers" are often told, "You'd have more fun if you would engage in some RP with other people."  Well, from what I've seen so far, player-player RP in PS consists primarily of chatting with each other.  It can be very rewarding, but how is it any different from an IRC fantasy channel?  Well, there certainly are a lot of significant differences between PS and IRC, but these "complainers" have noticed that most of the things that make the difference are no fun as the game stands right now.  If the only part of PS that is any fun is the person-person RP, then what's the point?  Why not just fire up the old internet chat and engage your imagination?  If PS is to succeed, we must take these complaints seriously and focus on the things that distinguish PS from chat, and make them FUN!

If you actually took the time to read this entire diatribe, thank you!

        -Lucas

Ichaas

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Re: Focus on Fun
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2008, 11:33:23 am »
I dunno. I like the rats althoigh I think that there could be somthign done to spark it up a bit for them so, as you say, the early levels don't disitegrate into meaningless blurry swarms of one eyed hairy things (and yes I realise what that sounds like...). Also I think it'd just be more fun to fight stuff if you have some active timer based skills that you could apply to combat so that grinding at least yeilds a potential reward other than more tria and a better weapon and another notch on that number besides the weapon skill you're using.
The landscapes need somthing. A tavern, some more monsters etc, a small outpost with some soldiers battling with monsters? Something that generally sparks life into things. I know it might be asking for alot but these are my thoughts on this matter.
I also notice that RP is generally just chatting for the most part, and I'm not really complaining, I'm just saying it because it's generally true. Sometmes it can get pretty interesting, but there always can be alot more to it, except I really don't know what apart from the NPC raids on cities and towns etc.

Kaerli

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Re: Focus on Fun
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2008, 01:03:41 pm »
Prices:
I think the idea of basing NPC prices off of the player market is a VERY good one (although the player market is somewhat inflated right now, when will the bubble burst? :P).

As far as the math goes though: Crystal Space (aka the 3D engine) contains some matrix math stuff already, but it only works for small matrices.  This leaves the programmer types with two options: pull in an existing (C++) numerics library (Boost::uBLAS, Blitz++, or POOMA) or roll our own linear-algebra code (probably based on the STL valarray<>).

As far as transportation goes: There will be mounts in the not-so-distant future.

Rats: It depends on your character if you have to kill them or not.  If you have someone of decent physical strength and weapon skill from char creation, they may be able to go into the Arena and work on some of the weaker Mercenaries straight away.

P.S. Not everyone RPs an epic hero in this game.  I have only one char that fits that description and some people don't have any!  (*points at Duraza and Donari  :whistling: *)

Jeraphon

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Re: Focus on Fun
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2008, 04:16:38 pm »
Quote
so NPCs buy at 130 to 140 tria and sell at 90 to 100 tria.

Why would anyone buy high and sell low?

lucasjung

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Re: Focus on Fun
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2008, 11:57:14 pm »
Before I get into my counter-responses, let me re-iterate that I didn't really want this thread to be about my ideas, I wanted it to be about everyone's ideas.  I was hoping for more of a brainstorming session, where just throw out their own ideas instead of commenting on the idea of others.  I hope that people will read each other's ideas, and think about them, but commenting on each other's ideas will quickly tie this conversation down to a handful of topics and stifle new thoughts.

All that being said, I will now proceed to comment on previous posts. :-[

Quote
so NPCs buy at 130 to 140 tria and sell at 90 to 100 tria.

Why would anyone buy high and sell low?

Oops.  That should have read: "...so NPCs buy at 90 to 100 tria and sell at 130 to 140 tria."  If you read the proceeding paragraph, you'll see that I described it properly the first time and only got it backwards when I summarized at the end.

Prices:
I think the idea of basing NPC prices off of the player market is a VERY good one (although the player market is somewhat inflated right now, when will the bubble burst? :P).

I think that prices in the player market are not inflated at all: they are perfect reflections of the value that people place on objects in the game.  I will, however, agree that the relative value of many items is out of line with what most people expect.  Why is that?  It's because this economy is, for all intents and purposes, centrally managed.  Historically, centrally managed economies always experience huge price distortions for some goods and severe shortages for others.  You may have noticed that both of those problems exist in PS.  The first step in solving this problem is to track prices, so that you will know definitively what effect, if any, your tweaks make on prices in the player-market.  Take iron for example.  Iron is expensive because it is required in the manufacture of some very valuable items.  Two steps will fix this:

1.) Require more raw iron to go into the construction of more valuable items.  Right now none of the smiths out there will waste iron making cheap weapons, because they can use that same iron making more valuable weapons.  Scaling the iron rquirement for items according to their value will restore the incentive to create all kinds of weapons and armor.  Unfortunately, this step alone will not lower the price of iron, it will just drive up the price of high-value items even further, which is why step 2 is needed.

2.) Make iron easier to mine.  If it's easier to mine, there's more of it, and we all know how supply and demand interact to set price.  This will also solve part of the drudgery problem.  As with step 1, this step alone will not solve the whole problem: if you make iron easier to mine without taking step 1 as well, you will flood the market with cheap but powerful weapons.  Oops.

From this example of iron, you can see how a free-market economy can still be influenced by the developers through tweaks to the ease of acquisition (mining, etc) and utility (how much is needed to make something) of goods: ease of acquisition directly effects supply and utility directly effects demand, which in turn combine to set prices.

As far as the math goes though: Crystal Space (aka the 3D engine) contains some matrix math stuff already, but it only works for small matrices.  This leaves the programmer types with two options: pull in an existing (C++) numerics library (Boost::uBLAS, Blitz++, or POOMA) or roll our own linear-algebra code (probably based on the STL valarray<>).

The client runs on Crystal Space, but my proposed price-tracker would have to run on the server.  I don't know a whole lot about the nuts and bolts of the behind-the scenes stuff of PS, but I would have to assume that the server is running on some very different stuff, probably mostly home-brewed.  Depending on what they are running, there are some great math packages out there.  If they can somehow incorporate scripting language into their code, they could just steal directly from www.sagemath.org, which is opensource.

RoberetGoldsmith

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Re: Focus on Fun
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2008, 12:34:12 am »
Likewise, spending half an hour of real world time running across empty landscapes between cities is never any fun. 
        -Lucas


 Glad you have brought this up Lucas, it is great that PS development team have made the new kran town along with the other two, but going back and to them bores the crap out of me. Endless green, with the occasional lake and creatures  thats about it.

Now please do forgive me for using  this example (please do) but look at World of warcraft (And don't say, were not WOW were not trying to imitate WOW etc, I get it). They have villages,farms, logging camps inbetween the major cities. This has already been suggested in a poll on this forum. I'd love for small villages and farms etc to pop inbetween the  cites, behind an inn/tavern so your character can have a  quick breather before setting off again.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2008, 03:19:00 am by RoberetGoldsmith »

Karyuu

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Re: Focus on Fun
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2008, 12:41:39 am »
I'd love for small villages and farms etc to pop inbetween the  cites, behind an inn/tavern so your character can have a  quick breather behind setting off again.

Yes, yes, and yes :)
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lucasjung

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Re: Focus on Fun
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2008, 04:19:17 am »
Believe it or not, there are ways to incorporate that kind of thing into your model, and they're pretty easy as long as you get a little help from a fellow named Laplace and another guy named Markov.  It involves some really BIG matrices, but this whole thing is running on computers, so that's not really a problem.

Well, I took a look at this problem, and it actually doesn't require any Laplace transforms or Markov reductions; it's actually a very straightforward least-squares fit problem, albeit one with a gargantuan matrix.  The hardest part about implementing this system would probably be re-working the trading system to report all player-to-player trades to the server.

Kaerli

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Re: Focus on Fun
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2008, 12:56:37 pm »
Hint: the server runs on Crystal Space too.

Jeraphon

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Re: Focus on Fun
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2008, 02:49:22 pm »
I'd love for small villages and farms etc to pop inbetween the  cites, behind an inn/tavern so your character can have a  quick breather behind setting off again.

Yes, yes, and yes :)

We do have small villages and farm towns planned (as anyone who's spoken to Taulim Wilaal will know) but it really isn't a huge distance between Hydlaa and Ojaveda. I know that in-game time and distance haven't really been rectified, but heck, let's be generous and say it takes two hours to get from one to the other on foot. Would you need a breather in a tavern if you left at 9am and got there by 11?

Karyuu

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Re: Focus on Fun
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2008, 04:44:12 pm »
Well, less taverns/small towns and more points of interest on the map, is what I'm thinking. Currently the terrain is boring even for my taste (and a working foliage system will improve this almost 70%). If it takes only a few minutes for a character to travel, s/he should still have plenty variety to look at and enjoy. Endless hills don't cut it for me... :)
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Garile

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Re: Focus on Fun
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2008, 05:14:25 pm »
Well perhaps no taverns but several farms should be there atleast. Wasn't it written somewhere that Talad interviened in a war on the Hydlaa level becuase they wanted to cut forests for farms? Havent's even seen one farm and only one forest trail that is actually next to Hydlaa :S

BD region has an exuse why it is empte obviously but don't feel the road maps should be that empty. Unless you are saving them for player housing ofcourse  :devil:
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Tyrania

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Re: Focus on Fun
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2008, 11:21:28 am »
I'd love for small villages and farms etc to pop inbetween the  cites, behind an inn/tavern so your character can have a  quick breather behind setting off again.

Yes, yes, and yes :)

We do have small villages and farm towns planned (as anyone who's spoken to Taulim Wilaal will know) but it really isn't a huge distance between Hydlaa and Ojaveda. I know that in-game time and distance haven't really been rectified, but heck, let's be generous and say it takes two hours to get from one to the other on foot. Would you need a breather in a tavern if you left at 9am and got there by 11?

sure.. in ingame time it will be maybe fast. but in real time it takes a long time. a new gamer need maybe 15-20 minutes from Ojaveda to Hydlaa, another one with more skills only 10 minutes... but the time it take from ojaveda (e.g. you died on the way from oja to bd) and run again to bronze doors.. you need 20 minutes and more. and thats boring. you run across a landscape see a few monsters.. run trough hydlaa... then again endless landscape... *yawn* there is nothing exciting on the way or farmhouses... and so on.
i think this need some work ;)
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