Author Topic: Pros vs Cons  (Read 4810 times)

nude0007

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Pros vs Cons
« on: March 18, 2008, 08:04:22 pm »
This game had so much potential that it really irritated me that I had such a bad experience with it.

The game was 3-d, "real-world" looking.  The architecture was stunning and the textures were rich and varied.  I have never seen a game where just standing and looking around was enjoyable, except for Oblivion (I am sure there are others).The game required you to build something of a history for your character and encouraged you to buy skills up front to flesh out your character. It has only a few races to choose from now, but that is easily added on later.  Movement was simple and easy point and click OR arrow keys! Keys are also programmable and "shrtcuts" (macros) can be added to further customize th einterfae.   Another  feature I really liked; you could easily move between first person, follow mode, overhead view, or another mode that was at an angle from above.  chatting with other players was easy and there was an help feature that allowed you to ask real people online for assistance or search through a limited (for now, I hope) Help file.  The landscape was beautiful and quite often I could climb to the top of hills to survey the surrounding area. 

BUT!   The skill levelling system.  A complicated system of bars that is not very intuitive.  Once you read an explanation, it makes some sense, but other games are easier to understand.

Many places were unbelieveably dark.  The main city, Hydlaa, was so dark I couldn't see at all most of the time except a short window around noon.  A section of the path leading away from the city to the north is so dark allof the time that you miss the sharp turn between two large bolders to move further into the world and coming back across it makes it hard to find the city gates.  When I enquired about this, I was told to just adjust the gamma on my monitor!  He said other games like Doom are also dark, but Doom allows you to set the gamma with a few keystrokes from within the game (and remembers them).  We shouldn't have to make a special foray into Windows settings just to play the game, and then have to reset it when we quit playing.

More annoying than that is the game interface was rather awkward. Multiple windowed menus that you (on the plus side) can move around the screen wherever you want, but often obscure much of the screen.  If you open the inventory window it takes up half of the screen! several others do also, so if you want to see more than one or two, you can't see anything in the game even though it can be set to be semi-transparent until you mouseover. The icons were very similar in design and blended together until mouseover, making it hard to remember which one it is you want.  Simple actions are unnecessarily complicated. In order to move items from the world into your inventory, you have to click on it, right click on it, and then select an action like "pick up" or "examine".  Moving things from inventory to the ground is just about as complex. Another example is to place items into a furnace you had to open a window for the furnace, open your inventory, select the amount of the type of object you want to move (reasonable), then drop it into the other window.  Why not click and drag directly onto the furnace and have it show up in the real world in the furnace? on top of that, the inventory menu has all your stats in it as well making it occupy more space.

Worst yet, interaction with npc's is almost impossible.  It uses a text window to type in what you want to say to the npc.  It was a RARE thing when I got one to understand what I wanted, and even seemed worse when I reduced my sentences to one or two words!  In a game where "roleplaying" is supposedly paramount, just getting quests or information is almost impossible!

Okay, actually the worst thing is there is no map! zip! nada!  The world is vast and full of valleys, so it is impossible to set your sights on a distinct feature and reference from it.  What is odd, is that it has many really tall rock spires scattered around the landscape, but they all look similar enough that they do not help with direction.  With no compass or map you spend a lot of time being lost, either in the city or in the wilderness. 

Aside from all this, when you log into the forum and mention ways to improve the game, the creator pretty much flatly refuses!  "There will be no maps, because they ruin roleplaying!  Exploring is fun!"  (Exploring is fine, but being lost all the time detracts from the game immensely.) "This game is about roleplaying, so I am going to force you to have to talk to npc's (who can't understand you) and others (who are all super nice, but may not have time to explain all you want to know) to get find out how to do things" (All paraphrased, or what I understood from what he said)

Then, finally, I died doing something I had done many times before with no problem.  I slid down a steep incline and died.  So I went to Hell.  Excuse me, The Death Realm.  A horrible place of endless paths that lead nowhere, with no clue whatsoever as to how to get out.  "to teach us to be very careful and to make us not want to die" like any of us REALLY wanted to die in the first place!  That's when I quit for good.

Add to all that the fact that monsters didn't attack back for a while ( a feature to allow players to run around for awhile without dying (shudder) and left little or no loot, then became un-attackable, apparently a huge glitch.  Also, the first quest I did get required me to wander to the absolute opposite end of the world to get a mineral.  Remember, this is a beginner quest and there is no way to find out where that location is!

I kept trying to remember that this is a Beta version of the game, but even so, there are so many problems, many that they refuse to even address, that I have had the worst gaming experience ever!  What is wrong with having maps and compasses?  If you don't feel they add to your roleplaying, THEN DON"T USE THEM!  No one is forcing players to use features in a game.  If you want to roleplay, you will, but having the game be especially difficult to use, just to try to force people to do it will only kill the game eventually. A game should offer people OPPORTUNITIES to do what they want, and if some agree that roleplaying is paramount, then they will roleplay.  Trying to force the issue only limits an otherwise positive gaming experience.  The interface should be VERY simple and intuitive.  Most of us have real lives and don't want to spend most of our gaming experience reading Player's Guides that are lengthy and still may not cover what we want to know (I didn't find out much about what I wanted to know) or wandering around lost and not acomplishing what we WANT to do, or having to ask other players or help advisors about things that we should be able to either figure out or should be quickly explained when you try to do something. (you need a hammer to do that, or you have to learn skill X from an instructor like X). 

So until the Death Realm dies, maps appear (or at least a compass, and npc's can understand SOMETHING I say to them, I am affraid I will be found on Runescape!


Jeraphon

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Re: Pros vs Cons
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2008, 08:42:15 pm »
Quote
I am affraid I will be found on Runescape!

Yeah...that sums it all up in more ways than one.

Zhaxor

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Re: Pros vs Cons
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2008, 10:35:33 pm »
Quote
So until the Death Realm dies, maps appear (or at least a compass, and npc's can understand SOMETHING I say to them, I am affraid I will be found on Runescape!

Well that's the entire point isn't it? if you want to play Runescape, play Runescape, if youwant ot play Planeshift play Planeshift.

I agree wih Jeraphon here, because it doesn't conform to your idea of what a RPG should be like (Runescape), you think it should be changed to a 3D clone of Runescape. It's a different game, with different gameplay dynamics.

Quote
What is odd, is that it has many really tall rock spires scattered around the landscape, but they all look similar enough that they do not help with direction.

Which just goes to show that you never really understood the game at all. Saying the rock spires (actually stalagmites!) all look the same fits into the same category as saying all pine trees look the same, they are supposed to look the same, they are the same thing. And it's not at all odd to have stalgmites and stalactites in a cave. Planeshift is designed and aimed at poeple who want to explore and find things out for themselves just as they would have to do if they were a real person suddenly transported to a different realm.

Have fun in Runescape, I tried it once, it just seemed utterly pointless and completley full of flaws and after a few minutes I simply couldnt stand it, they should change to be just like Planeshift, only 2D, then I would have stayed longer LOL

Prolix

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Re: Pros vs Cons
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2008, 12:10:55 am »
I do not  quite agree with dismissing his "rock spires" complaint. The stala[gmites|ctites] in the game are not particularly realistic and could be much more varied. It is true that the basic shape is common but there is little evidence of their proper origin from dripping water depositing its suspended minerals. Also there are different formations in the real world that depend on the direction and strength of the flow as well as intervening obstructions. I hope to see more kinds of speleothems in the future.

Manar

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Re: Pros vs Cons
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2008, 04:29:43 am »
Okay, actually the worst thing is there is no map! zip! nada!
[...]
the creator pretty much flatly refuses! "There will be no maps, because they ruin roleplaying!  Exploring is fun!"

It seems to me that this gets repeated quite a bit, but really, there are maps.
I'll admit there's not too many, they're not always helpful, they can be hard to find and the sketching system can use some more improvements. It's being worked on.
But using the tools available in-game right now, it is possible to create a good, detailed and accurate map. If you can't find one, make one.
— Maanahr Ilde, Cartographer, Scout in the Explorers Guild.

SynergfyFlo

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Re: Pros vs Cons
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2008, 05:11:42 am »
hey folks...

since this is a complaints section, there's little need to sulk when people raise criticism or threaten to abandon the game for (gasp! shock! horror!) runescape.

the issue of finding one's way around is a bit difficult for a newbie, but i feel that it adds a little realism - of course you'd get lost if you suddenly appeared in a vast cavern on the inside (!?) of a massive stalactite, with myriad hills, vales and tunnels.

maps can be found (some of them extremely detailed) in various guild archives - once again an incentive to interact with people in-game, develop alliances and friendships.
I have usually found that just asking other pc's for help or directions is good enough to find most spots.

i also had a rough time in the death realms for a while ... until i just sat back and observed other pc's....there's enough influx of battered souls that you don't have to wait too long before you meet someone. even if they are not inclined to chat, you could follow them for a while and see where they go.

just watch your step, and don't look down if you suffer from virtual vertigo!
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Zhaxor

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Re: Pros vs Cons
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2008, 05:29:53 am »
Okay, actually the worst thing is there is no map! zip! nada!
[...]
the creator pretty much flatly refuses! "There will be no maps, because they ruin roleplaying!  Exploring is fun!"

It seems to me that this gets repeated quite a bit, but really, there are maps.
I'll admit there's not too many, they're not always helpful, they can be hard to find and the sketching system can use some more improvements. It's being worked on.
But using the tools available in-game right now, it is possible to create a good, detailed and accurate map. If you can't find one, make one.

I supect the OP has a different concept of "map" than what you are discussing, AKA the traditional "reveal" map that appears under the tab key of many other exploration games that unshadows territory as you traverse it to reveal the landscape details and remains forever once you have it revealed, rather than the traditional paper map, whch as you say do exist even in public from places like Jayose's. thisis the type of map the OP wants and the Devs are determined not to have, I agree with them, I can just see every new player walking around in a grid pattern revealing all the maps so they no longer have to think.

Leama

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Re: Pros vs Cons
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2008, 07:14:05 am »
One thing that is great about PlaneShift is it is free to play. Another thing that is great about this game is this forum where we can express our opinions both ‘Pros’ and 'Cons’.

I do think that if a person does not like the game for whatever the reason they should not play. To each their own, as they say. So nude0007 I wish you well as you go on to play another game. Though, in my opinion, I highly doubt you will find a better community then the one that PlaneShift has.

Life is lived forwards, but understood backwards.

Arerano

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Re: Pros vs Cons
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2008, 07:21:58 am »
In order to move items from the world into your inventory, you have to click on it, right click on it, and then select an action like "pick up" or "examine".
Unless you changed the default configuration, you simply have to double click onto the item in order to pick it up.
If you don't like to actually have to "click onto" the item (targeting doesn't work that well always), you could simply use "Target next Item" and "Pickup" shortcuts. Or even a combination of both.
Code: [Select]
/target clear
/target next item
/pickup
The "target clear" only in order to pickup the nearest item.

Moving things from inventory to the ground is just about as complex.
open your "small inventory" (which needs way less space)
Code: [Select]
/show bag
And drag the desired items to the place where you want them to be. It hardly can be easier. Althought - I must admit - I'd love to see a "/drop <count> <itemname>" command.

Greetings, Arerano Areramau

Ravenguard

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Re: Pros vs Cons
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2008, 02:02:18 pm »
I can't say I have the same problem of darkness as you do.  I haven't had to change gamma anywhere, and everything's fine for me.  Maybe the Mac version is different. *shrugs*

I agree that the various windows are large, but there is rarely a time when you want more than two open.  In fact, the only thing I can think of is when you find out you have a glyph via your glyphs window, and are anal to want to organize it with the rest of your glyphs in the glyph sack.  So... glyphs and inventory... but you could close glyphs.  Once you get used to what you need (which didn't take long for me), it isn't as bothersome.  The only thing I'd suggest is that the character portrait in inventory be as large as the one in player stats.

Picking things up and putting them down isn't complex.  I don't see how it's more complex than other MMORPGs out there (I played WoW for a year, EVE for several months, Vendetta for half a year).

I agree that NPC interaction can be *extremely* frustrating at times.  It took me awhile to get used to, but now I can do it better than before.  I also tend to help those with ideas if I see people frustrated.  We know that the NPCs can be hard to talk to; it's being worked on.  It's just hard to program an NPC to understand anything a actual person could say, but I prefer this (with all of its frustrating things) to little chat boxes where you pick what you say.  I like thinking about it (most of the time).

The lack of maps does mean you either have to explore or ask people for directions.  It was an issue with me when I first started, but I asked directions and made notes on how to get to places.  Straight lines and road landmarks are your friends.

Actually, some people want to die so they can glean info from those inhabiting the Death Realm.  There're quests that send you there because the folks there are... more odd than those in living reality.  There're trainers in there too.  Also, monsters to fight (rats that give 200 exp? what?).  Death in PS isn't that bad, it's the true death that's bad.

Monsters having issues happens a lot.  As you said, this is a beta, there're problems.  People complain when they can strike back, people complain when they don't.  Please, just deal with the problems of the NPCs as yes, these are too being worked on.

The Death Realm is part of the game.  Maps and compasses are moot when you have friends.  Besides, what would the Explorer's Guild do if everyone had maps to everywhere?  You get used to NPCs as you play.

This game is good as is, and I like the direction it's going.  To make a WoW or Runescape knockoff won't get it anywhere.  Making it unique is something that'll set it apart.  That's what were trying to do here.

Kerbox

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Re: Pros vs Cons
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2008, 04:35:11 pm »
If I have to say something good about this game it would be that the graphics are ok, indoor environments look quite good but it's not like I can really enjoy exploring the game with the mouselook being so useless for windows users. I don't have a problem with brightness though, it's not too dark for me. After saying all this, I still think this game has potential and I will be testing every new update that comes out.

nude0007

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Re: Pros vs Cons
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2008, 09:24:05 pm »
the respone i got to my lengthy missive is no less than i expected.  Rather than offering the promise of something better or trying to make a better game with criticism, all they offer is their own criticism of the problems we have with the game and say we are at fault.  I too think Runescape is basically pointless, but until guys like you actually listen and make a BETTER game, it is still better than the Impossible-to-play monster you offer (Grin).  and as others said, it doesn't matter if you call them stalactites, stalagmites, or abstrat polygons with textures like they really are, the fact is they could be used to navigate, if made to look sufficiently different from one another, a point you are intent upon missing.

I BET if I made a game with no way to know where you are, you'd be the first to complain, and if the npc's didn't understand YOU, you'd be ticked off too.  Just cause you wrote it that way doesn't make it the right way.  Anyone who is truly intelligent realizes that the way he sees things is not necessarily 100% accurate or best.  Probably not even 50%.  True brilliance is being willing to adapt.  It's the story of success.  Those who are willing to adapt survive.  Those who don't are not even a footnote in the collective conciousness. 
Iwish you a measure of success at your NEXT endeavor.

*edit*

my biggest point is that it shouldn't be that hard.  I shouldn't have to have to learn shortcut/bypass # 110 or spend hours figuring out just th e right syntax to talk to npc's.  If you want things to be hard then you can ignore help or easy ways and try to talk to others using sign language or something.  Run out into the wilderness and turn off you monitor and move around a while to make SURE you are lost if that excites you, but DON'T expect others to find that as exciting as you do.    Roleplaying is hindered  by NOT HAVING TIME TO DO IT, not by being lost or unable to communicate easily.  As I said, maps do not hinder play.If you don't like them, don't use them.  But if you can't communicate with npc's that are the central way to interact with the game, then what have you got?  As for when I got trapped in hell, er, Death REalm, there was one other person there who was as lost as me.  I don't have time to wait hours or days for someone to get me out of a situation i shouldn't be subjected to in the first place (FOR SLIDING DOWN A HILL that i'd done before! It's not like I said "I'm invincible, I'm going to jump off a really high spot just because I can!")
At least in runescape I can set out to do something and do it.  I am only limited by what I decide to do, not by having an interface that stops me.

*edit*

Oh, PS:  I have met THE NICEST PLAYERS ON THIS GAME THAT I EVER MET!  They deserve better!  Wish I could repay them in even the smallest way.  Especially a certain gentleman from Germany.  I salute you!
« Last Edit: March 20, 2008, 09:43:34 am by neko kyouran »

Ravenguard

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Re: Pros vs Cons
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2008, 09:51:43 pm »
Nude0007, Runescape is a game requiring money to play, and a larger, paid, dedicated staff.  Not saying that the staff and workers here aren't dedicated, but they're also not paid to my knowledge.

Runescape is also a game that is essentially finished.  This is not.  It is a -> :beta:

Thus, we are all testers.  You are a bit testy.  Our suggestions move this game in the directions it takes.  If you don't want to help, give suggestions, try things out, then by all means, play games that are finished.  Who knows?  Maybe maps will be implemented later.  Maybe someone will make a breakthrough in NPC AI and they'll be like walking/talking people.

I'm here because I'm patient.  I know there are bugs that need to be worked out, and I want to see things fixed, because it feels good to see them done.

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Re: Pros vs Cons
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2008, 10:11:56 pm »
We promise to offer players a better experience in the future. No, your complaints will not all be adressed to your personal satisfaction. Some may be. It will not all happen anytime soon. Tracking minimaps will never happen (as I have been told).

I would also like to point out at this time that PS does not have a single person that works full time on the game. Not one. Not a single person is paid to work on the game, or gets any money out of it. Not one. Not a single person working on the game is indebted to the players.

Am I defending the game? No. I am merely pointing out that we are not your servants. We work on the game because it is enjoyable for us to do so.

Having said that, and having briefly looked at Runescape, you are free to remain there as long as you wish.

stfrn

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Re: Pros vs Cons
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2008, 10:16:43 pm »
If you thinking playing planeshift is difficult, you should try programing it  ;) I tried to fix mouselook problems at various points, but what remains is some inconstiant software in windows that no one seems to be able to pin down. Poor mouselook  :'(.

Also, I suffered from the gamma problems... until recently there was the commandline -fullbright, but I belive that was removed... maybe someday someone will figure out how to make the gamma accessable, but it will take work.
player -> gm -> dev -> bum