Pros vs Cons

[Zhaxor]

I BET if I made a game with no way to know where you are, you'd be the first to complain, and if the npc's didn't understand YOU, you'd be ticked off too.  Just cause you wrote it that way doesn't make it the right way.

Ahh, you really do seem to be missing something, I didnt write it, I just play it OK? I joined, found all the same game mechanics you found, and adapted my play style to suit. Yes I wandered off into the wilderness my second time, umm, there are roads! I walked all the way to BD from Hydlaa without getting seriously lost, having a map or getting directions from anybody.

The NPC's were irritating, but I do understand this is a beta and not a polished release, I eventually learned how to communicate by putting in a bit of time and effort.

At least in runescape I can set out to do something and do it.

If a game is to easy to play it loses all attraction pretty quickly unless you have a very short attention span, PS is not a game to jump into and become an uber mage/warrior etc in a  few days, in fact it does take a lot of work to gain levels, and more imprtantly, to gain the respect of other players, those people you seem to regard so highly but would never be seen dead or alive in Runescape. Aren't they enough of an attraction to keep you in PS? If not then I expect you are placing to much emphasis on wrong aspects of the game.

[steuben]

True brilliance is being willing to adapt.  It's the story of success.  Those who are willing to adapt survive.  Those who don't are not even a footnote in the collective conciousness. 

an interesting philosphy you hold... yet i see little of it's application.

[SynergfyFlo]

i've been involved with this game for less tha 6 months - i was astounded by the amazingly interactive 3d world...open source!!!

in this time, i have already noticed major improvements and changes. this game is under development, it's quite dynamic, and an amazing bit of work.
sure there are rough edges, and our feedback as players/testers will help to polish these, i am certain. luckily for the sake of brilliance, both players and devs are capable of adapting. hang in there!

the darkness issue and the mouselook seems to be a windows-related problem - just one more reason to ditch the virus  and start working with linux!

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

It should be kinda difficult to get lost from place to place. There are clearly marked paths from place to place (note they are different colors), and there are signs all over the place.

The intelligence of npcs . . . in many ways planeshift npcs are actually several orders of magnitude smarter than in most games. I know this seems hard to believe but dealing with drop down menus and strictly linear quests is much more straightforward than writing thousands of entries and growing able to predict the types of things that people will ask. We do have tools for this and more responses are added every week as we adapt to what players desire.

People who come to ps expecting a complete game tend to leave disappointed. There is little the ps team can do about this but keep marching. Remember folks it is an alpha.

[nude0007]

yes, i understand that the game is in Alpha.  yes, I figured it is kind of a spare time project.  the big problem is that it seems very much like you just dismiss my concerns as my problem.  It seems like you really don't want constructive criticism, you just want to be left alone to go your own way.  If that is the case, then why have forums at all?  or at least this thread?  If you want us to tell you what we feel is a problem, don't just tell us we're the ones that are wrong.  If I have sounded more and more edgy, it's because you seem to act like none of my points have any validity.  It's great if some people don't mind trying 500 times to talk to an npc till they finally get it right, but those of us who don't have that much time or patience should also be able to enjoy the game, don't u think?

Everything I have said is intended as a tool to help you make the game better.  If you allow options for people to turn on or off according to how they want to play, then you have made a better game.  I assume you will one day want to actually launch it as a "finished" game and perhaps even charge people, well you will increase your player numbers by being more versatile. 

BTW: Runescape is free too.  I read that there are 5 million active free accounts!  And as I said, it's not THE game I am looking for, I want multi-player Oblivion!  You guys were the closest thing I found to that.  You seem to have glossed over that I said a lot of positive things about your game as well.  The "problem" section took up more space, cause I had to spell out in detail what I found to be a problem. 

Sorry if you didn't find any merrit in my suggestions.

[lucasjung]

It should be kinda difficult to get lost from place to place. There are clearly marked paths from place to place (note they are different colors), and there are signs all over the place.

That statement is, at best, a misleading half-truth.  Let's break down some of these "clearly marked paths" and "signs all over the place:"

Kran city to Hydlaa: if you ask any of the Kran how to get to Hydlaa, they will tell you "go out the gates and turn right at the fork in the road."  So, you go out through the stone "gates" into the next region and...road, what road?  There's just a great big empty green area with lots of hills, a few trees, and a lake.  If you just turn right and start going, the edge of the area will gradually force you to curve your path around to the left until you hit the stone "gate" to Hydlaa.  (Note to newbs: this is actually a very reliable, albeit excruciatingly slow way to get around: follow the edge of the area and you will always end up a at a "gate" to the next region).  If you try to go the other way, from Hydlaa to the Kran city, you emerge from the stone "gate" onto a very well defined road: it's a different color, and it has steep walls closing it in on either side.  Unfortunately, following this road will never get you to your destination.  You just have to know that at some point, you have to defy all common sense by climbing up that steep wall on your left and setting out cross-country.  As for signs, there are a few along this route, but none of them mention either city.  All of these signs just sit right next to some sort of geographical feature and provide it's name.  While knowing that I'm at "Cutthroats Bane" certainly adds some nice flavor to the game, it doesn't tell me how to get where I am going.

Hydlaa to Ojaveda: exit the gate behind Jayose's library and just follow the road.  This works pretty well at first because the road does seem to be reasonably well defined by its different color, but then the borders of the road become vague in a few places, and there are even some small branches here or there.  You think to yourself, "Should I take those branches?  No, I'll just stay on what looks like the main path."  And then, you get to a large, round area that's all the same beige "road" color, with several "roads" branching out from it.  Which one do you take?  Well, fortunately, there are some signposts.  Oops!  None of those signposts say anything about Hydlaa or Ojaveda.  You'll just have to guess!  Isn't getting lost just one great big fun adventure?

If the intent is to make this a world with some verisimilitude, then the roads and road signs are an abject failure.  We are talking about a society that, at this point, has just three major settlements plus the bronze doors.  Such a society would have very big, very well-defined roads between those settlements to facilitate travel and trade.  There would be clear signposts at every intersection to tell travelers which way to go.  If you want to take a page from the ancient Romans, you could even put mileage markers along the roads (10 leagues to Hydlaa...8 leagues to Hydlaa...6, etc.).  There would be inns along the roads, certainly at every major crossroads.  There would be a constant stream of NPC traffic going in both directions, especially trade caravans.  I realize that those last two (inns and NPC traffic) will most likely not come until a later stage of development, but the roads and signs really need to be improved as soon as possible.

[Karyuu]

I assume you will one day want to actually launch it as a "finished" game and perhaps even charge people, well you will increase your player numbers by being more versatile.

There will never be any charging players. Not a dime. The very purpose of this project is to create a fully free, fully functional and ever-evolving game. Donations are welcome, but even then they do not give players anything in return, in the game - no special advantages, no special items.

nude0007, some of your complaints are valid, and some suggestions are things that we are already working on. But not everything you advise are things we want to go for. It's a difference of opinion and preference of design. We've made our choices, after years of thinking it over and comparing alternatives, and listening to all the arguments. Yes, it would be super easy for drop-downs when you talk to NPCs, but it would also be boring. Surprise surprise, when presented with such a system, most players tend to barely read anything and click with a half-absent mind. The point is we have chosen a system for NPC conversations that we are not going to radically change - only improve in the direction it's going. If this design choice upsets you, there is little we can do but ask you to either bear with us until you find it more usable, or take a break and come back in the future.

But, when it comes to your points about the GUI for example, I'm in total agreement that it badly needs a redesign. Some of our devs have a lot of ideas in how to make it better; they also lack the time. I just want you to know that I realize that is a problem, and I hope to be tackling it as soon as we find the right manpower and right amount of hours. (And redesigning the GUI is no simple task.)

Now, tackling the complaint of ambiguous roads and scenery that can induce highway-hypnosis: total agreement. I'm an art dev and I find our hills boring as hell... :) I'm waiting for the day we can use foliage without major performance hits to make it more interesting, but the point lucasjung brings up about a constant stream of traffic and the need for better orientation is totally right. While I can't promise that current maps will see a dramatic update soon, I can promise that new maps created will not suffer from this problem. Again, I recognize the problem and hope to rectify it next chance I get.

I'm afraid there's not much more I can offer you that is within my power, but I hope seeing that you are listened to will ease your mind just a bit. PlaneShift can be a frustrating experience, but as stfrn said: if you think playing is bad, try working on it ;)

[Marqsaynt]

If I have sounded more and more edgy, it's because you seem to act like none of my points have any validity.  It's great if some people don't mind trying 500 times to talk to an npc till they finally get it right, but those of us who don't have that much time or patience should also be able to enjoy the game, don't u think?

Truthfully? Not really.

If Planeshift was a game being developed to make money and attract the largest demographic all of your points would be very, very valid. But, PS is not a development for money project. Think of it this way, there are things an artist crafts to make a living (i.e. a photographer shooting a magazine ad, a commercial portrait painter, etc.) then, there are projects that an artist does just for themselves and/or a small group who appreciates the less standard approach. PS always has been, and I would guess, always will be a niche game. They chose to largely target roleplay gamers (a group typcially marginalized by other MMORPGs) and it's philosophy on things like maps is just another example of this commitment.

Think about it... once map making skills are refined, a new person could show up in town and there are actually player characters peddling maps, Not just one standard map but, lots of different types! So, first few moments in game and already you are RPing with another person and the realm doesn't seem quite an overwhelming place as it did before. While some features are admittedly rough around the edges and there is always the occasional misstep when a new feature is added, most of the times it seems to me that these features are being added/developed in order to increase the IC interactions of people in game. A concept that I agree with even if I don't necessarily always agree with how they go about trying to achieve this goal.

Basically, if it seems that your suggestions have fallen on deaf ears it's probably more just a difference in philosophy... You have a vision of what a MMORPG game should be and that (at least in some aspects) differs from the people creating PS.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Note also Nude007, most people answering are just fellow players.

You do have your ideas, I get it.

There are clearly defined paths. With time you CAN identify landmarks. People do this all the time.

The thing that I try to concentrate on is that ps is somewhat educational in nature and does require a bit more real world sense to be good at.

Example: I am in hydlaa in the plaza. Noob asks "how do I get to a tavern?" I say, "Ah friend look up [use pg up and pg down key] you see that very tall tower there?" Noob says "Yeszors!" I say, "[we try not to use leet here this is am immersion game] Right then I want you to head toward that ramp and toward that tower, as you go up a little ways off to your left you will be looking for an inset stairway, head on up there and you should see the tavern. May Laanx frighten the shadows from thy path."

or you can face the statue of Laanx in the center of the plaza and relate all directions to it.

Example: "I can't find Harnquists shop." "Ah that is easy good sir, go to the Laanx statue in the center of the plaza, when you are facing the statue, Harnquists shop is off to Laanx's right."

There are specific things that stand out in every map. Finding the language to wield these things to be able to communicate with other players is a challenge that at least for now we leave to the players.

The Npcs will of course improve in time but we have our own solid reasons for them not being the purveyors of directions about the city.

One day they will move. (this make it impossible to use relative direction)

There are over 300 of them. (kind of less than trivial to get them to do all we might want in an ideal world)

We want players to interact WITH EACH OTHER.

Anyhow yes, the game is in development, all comments are taken in the spirit they are given.

All posters must realize the inevitability of repetition in a forum such as this, and know that no one is dismissing their ideas, just bored with the thousandth such complaint.

Runescape comparison's will never have the least bit of sway on me. I work as hard as the best of their devs for free while they get paid to do it.   

Happy gaming.

[Waylander]

BUT!   The skill levelling system.  A complicated system of bars that is not very intuitive.  Once you read an explanation, it makes some sense, but other games are easier to understand.

Most of the points have already been addressed. I'd like to point out that this is a very valid one.  I don't mind the leveling system itself (progression then practice) but the way it is represented in the skills window could be rethought.  Would be a nice little change.

You have to keep in mind that a lot of your points were just bugs.  Though I can think of a couple devs who would love Hydlaa to suddenly be really, really dark just to bother the players, I highly doubt that it's anything but a glitch

PlaneShift is going to be a game.  It's not necessarily going to be your perfect game.  Something that a few players could do with realizing

All the same, I wish you'd stayed.  Besides the questionable Forum user name you seem to be quite alright.

[lucasjung]

There are clearly defined paths. With time you CAN identify landmarks. People do this all the time.

Your initial statement about paths being clearly defined had nothing to do with landmarks: you said that their color gives them away.  I showed how the color of roads is pretty much useless for navigating to many places.  Now you are changing your story and saying that it is the landmarks, not the color of roads, that makes the paths clearly defined.

Example: I am in hydlaa in the plaza. Noob asks "how do I get to a tavern?" I say, "Ah friend look up [use pg up and pg down key] you see that very tall tower there?" Noob says "Yeszors!" I say, "[we try not to use leet here this is am immersion game] Right then I want you to head toward that ramp and toward that tower, as you go up a little ways off to your left you will be looking for an inset stairway, head on up there and you should see the tavern. May Laanx frighten the shadows from thy path."

or you can face the statue of Laanx in the center of the plaza and relate all directions to it.

Example: "I can't find Harnquists shop." "Ah that is easy good sir, go to the Laanx statue in the center of the plaza, when you are facing the statue, Harnquists shop is off to Laanx's right."

There are specific things that stand out in every map. Finding the language to wield these things to be able to communicate with other players is a challenge that at least for now we leave to the players.

If that were how players and NPCs gave directions, then I think it would not be so objectionable, but that isn't how they give directions: several NPCs and players all gave me the same directions to get from the Kran town to Hydlaa: go out the gate, take a right at the fork in the road.  There is no road, and therefore no "fork in the road!"  Directions based on landmarks have to be based upon landmarks that actually exist.

Furthermore, your suggestions about how "clearly defined paths" can be based entirely upon landmarks does not address my point about verisimilitude: even if no central authority is maintaining the roads, they will still be obivous from frequent travel (mud and dirt vice grass, ruts from wagon wheels, etc).  Also, it is almost impossible to navigate cross-country based solely upon landmarks unless you have a compass.  "To Laanx's right" works in the city, but there is no such easy method of orientation in the wild, unless you have a compass.  I realize that there may be solid technical reasons why compasses have yet to appear (and that it may be much longer before they do), but until compasses appear, cross-country navigation without roads and/or direction signposts will be impractical and unrealistic.

I understand that there are a lot of things about this game that can't be fixed right now (or even anytime soon) due to the limited time and resources of the developers.  I have no problem if you say, "We just can't fix that right now; maybe later."  It is ridiculous, however, to say, "That's not really a problem."  There is no shame in having problems in a game at this level of development, but there is great shame in trying to explain away real problems.

*edit*

All posters must realize the inevitability of repetition in a forum such as this, and know that no one is dismissing their ideas, just bored with the thousandth such complaint.

I also have a suggestion to cut down on the repetition factor.  Following this suggestion will also hopefully address the feelings on the part of many players that their concerns are being ignored, thus killing two birds with one stone.

Most of the opensouce projects I have interacted with have a "state of the project" tracker that basically outlines, in brief, where the project has been, where it is going next, and what the known outstanding issues are.  PS may have such a document, but I have yet to find it.  I suggest putting a sticky thread at the top of the Complaints Department, right under the guidelines, and make one of the guidelines, "Read the 'state of the project' thread before posting."  The 'state of the project' thread should include a very brief statement of developer philosophy, short- and long-term development goals (and rough estimates for when each will be realized), and a list of known problems with brief explanations that include relative priority.  Here's an example:

Philosophy: PlaneShift is about roleplaying, so most of our design decisions are centered around encouraging player-to-player interaction...

Short-Term Goals:
1.)
2.)
etc.

Long-Term Goals:
1.)
2.)
etc.

Known Problems/Common Complaints:

1.) Conversing with NPCs can be extremely frustrating.
    We are well aware of this, and are constantly working to improve NPC conversation skills.  No matter what, we are NOT going to adpot a pull-down system for NPC conversations.  You can help fix these issues by following the steps in [this other thread about NPC conversations]

2.) The Death Realm is difficult to escape and generally frustrating.
    The Death Realm is supposed to be difficult to escape and generally frustrating, which is an incentive for you not to die and a small "punishment" if you do.  That being said, we are always open to constructive suggestons on improving the Death Realm.  If you are new, here are some tips for coping with a trip to the Death Realm...

3.) There is no auto-map.
    There will never be an auto-map.  Instead, we want players to make maps and sell them to each other.

4.) There is no compass.
    That is on our to-do list, but is very low priority right now.  If you are a skilled programmer, maybe you can volunteer to work on this problem!

5.) I'm new, and I can't find any weapons to buy that I can afford!  Also, the relationship between prices for different items seems all out of whack.
    We have set up the economy in order to encourage players to trade with each other instead of with NPCs.  However, we understand that there are still a lot of problems and imbalances in the economy.  We are constantly making small adjustments in an attempt to improve the economy, and are always open to constructive suggestions on how to make it better.  However, the following steps are ones that we are NOT willing to make because they contradict our design philosophy...


With a sticky post like this at the top of the complaints department, players with a complaint will quickly be able to find out which category it falls into:

1.) The developers know about it and are doing their best to correct it.

2.) The developers know about it but are not currently working on it due to lack of time/resources.

3.) The developers know about it, and it is on purpose (see maps and Death Realm above)

4.) The developers apparently aren't aware of it, because it's not mentioned in the sticky.

[Jeraphon]

If that were how players and NPCs gave directions, then I think it would not be so objectionable, but that isn't how they give directions: several NPCs and players all gave me the same directions to get from the Kran town to Hydlaa: go out the gate, take a right at the fork in the road.  There is no road, and therefore no "fork in the road!"  Directions based on landmarks have to be based upon landmarks that actually exist.

That was written as a placeholder when it was only discussed that gugrontid would be on a leftward path on a road from hydlaa, before gugrontid was actually placed. If you'd like to re-write the directions from gugrontid to hydlaa in concise terms, pm them to me and I'll give you my personal guarantee they'll go in as such.

Edit: you're at nine posts, so just reply to this and then pm me.

I suggest putting a sticky thread at the top of the Complaints Department, right under the guidelines, and make one of the guidelines, "Read the 'state of the project' thread before posting."

Yeah, because stickies work. Ever see the wishlist thread? There's a sticky there and at least two thirds of all wishes are locked because the poster didn't read them.

[lucasjung]

Edit: you're at nine posts, so just reply to this and then pm me.

This makes nine, which apparently isn't enough for PM.  Here are my directions:

From Hydlaa to Gugrontid:

Exit through gate by Octarch's tower and go into the woods.  Go left at the fork in the road in the woods.  Shortly after exiting the woods through a short canyon, the road will curve to the right--instead of following the road, go straight ahead over the ridge.  You will see a large stalagmite in the distance: the entrance to Gugrontid is to the left of the base of that stalagmite.

From Gugrontid to Hydlaa:

After exiting the canyon out of Gugrontid, you will see a fallen stalagtite ahead and slightly to the right.  Go towards it until you see a large boulder ahead and to your left.  Go past the boulder and continue over the ridge, then turn right onto the road on the other side.  Once in the woods, turn right at the fork in the road and follow the road to Hydlaa.

[Kerol]

Most of the opensouce projects I have interacted with have a "state of the project" tracker that basically outlines, in brief, where the project has been, where it is going next, and what the known outstanding issues are.  PS may have such a document, but I have yet to find it.

Ahahaha. Yeah, the missing roadmap.. I complained about that, too, when I was still player 3 years ago.
There's no roadmap. Not publicly, not internally. We have a collection of ideas and subprojects being worked on and everyone having "their brainchild" which they like most to work on.
At the beginning of each release circle everyone places suggestions for the next version, then Talad decides what takes priority, depending on who is around (which changes constantly) and what he wants in primarily.

We use the forums and bugtracker (bugs.hydlaa.com) to filter suggestions from players and keep track of the problems while we decide internally on which feature gets in.
Well, there CAN'T be a roadmap planning ahead the next 10 versions for PS simply because people come and go, and everyone has different things in mind (which is a good thing) and wants to have things work in a certain way - and because we decide on things in a semi-democratic way, depending on what we need most in that moment.
If someone suggested an idea but isn't around anymore to fight for the time and ressources to get it implemented, the idea dies, too, in most cases.
Everyone wants to have specific features integrated and bugs fixed, but we only have so many devs who can do one thing.

PS is different from most opensource projects I know, mostly because of its organisation which is a hybrid of a company structure and a chaotic geek-thing.
What I wanted to say: No roadmap, except the things Talad mentions in different interviews, forum posts etc. The rest is on the bugtracker and the various FAQ (which you can find collected on pswiki.xordan.com).
And last but not least: If you have bugs to report, put them on the tracker. We have built a tester team whose purpose is to exactly work on those, they eventually also can give you better answers than the people around here.

[nude0007]

laying all the other stuff aside for a moment, why do you feel there must be a Death Realm to "penalize" people for dying?  I've never even heard tell of a single player who got themselves killed on purpose, or kept doing it to the point where it was a problem, or any other reason I can think of.  Most games just have you lose items, which is penalty enough if you ask me. 

The thing is, I cannot find the way out, and after investing all the time I did in that character, I am upset that I can't get him out to use again.  I really don't want to have to start another character, so where does that leave me? 

As I said, I didn't do anything that I hadn't done many times before without losing even a smidgen of health, and was completely dumbfounded when I died.  If you feel that the Death Realm is necessary, then how about 3 "get out of DR free" cards, so that if you can't get out, ou spend one.  Then, if you die by mistake, or can't find your way out of the DR, you just use one of your passes. 

If you could get me out fo the DR, I might try playing again.  Heck, I have always wanted to become a developer, BUT...