Pros vs Cons

[Karyuu]

I can't imagine it's that hard to watch other players and follow them out in the DR. It's not even necessary to stop and talk.

[Raa]

First time I was sent to the Death Realm, I got to the exit in about a minute (then I fell and died). And a twelve-year-old girl I know (who doesn't play anymore) got out in no time without help or guidance.

I can't fathom how the Death Realm can be so difficult. You have to be pretty freakin' stupid to get stuck in there.

[Elvicat]

to add, the dr is also a realm on it's own that will have inhabitants, maybe me in the future who knows
it's just like the living realm and may when the game is more finnished be as big as or even bigger than the living realm

[Mythryndel]

I am relatively new to the game myself. I had a very hard time getting out of the DR. I was stuck for over an hour, and was consulting google, before someone noticed me and asked if I needed help. I had tried to follow people, but i kept losing them... I died several times walking off the edges of things, and it seems odd to me to force people to take a leap of faith to get out of the DR.

I still play, largely because the graphics are amazing, and the price is right.

The argument about realism and no maps. Maybe it is just because i was in boy scouts growing up, but I would NEVER go out in the woods trying to find some place I had never been without a compass. I have been told once or twice to look for the crystal, but It cannot be seen from many places I have been. It is very easy to get turned around completely and not recognize where you are, or how to get back to where you were.

[Prolix]

Part of the problem with exiting the DR, which takes some practice, is that many people end up there soon after starting to play the game. The spiral ledges are hard to navigate and frequently cause new players to plunge to their death.  The drop from near the citadel to the second catwalk is hard to find and following an advanced character can be fatal -- I for one often drop off the upper ramp to the rock floor which can be fatal for a newcomer. It is also easy to miss the lower catwalk causing yet another fatality. The last thing about following people out is that when you are new you still have to fight with the controls which is a lot easier while walking and most of the people you are following are running full out. It is easy to lose them and if you happen to play at the wrong time you might not see another for quite a while.

Once you know the way out it just takes practice to get where you can traverse the route without dying or getting stuck on the geometry. When the mobs are active it is possible to die just trying to walk past them. There is a fine balance between be quick or be dead and be quick AND be dead.

Once you get used to it, it is easy enough.

[Ahrimann]

I'm just wondering, do the characters join the world after having experienced some sort of amnesia? Do they arrive on a vessel or through a portal from the surface or from a different world? Do they start out as infants on the first login? Just in case they don't, this is where a basic built-in map comes in.

Might I also ask why the developers are so preoccupied with "penalties"? Is the Maze Realm... I mean a maze-like realm on a laggy server with a laggy client with NPC trainers (that players might require) and quests in it really the best design decision to handle "death"? This is a game, is it not? Unless the goal is to make it tedious and boring.

I also see numerous people (read: player base) post about changing the quest dialog system into a dialog tree based system instead of having to type everything manually, only to get accused of wanting to be "spoon-fed" (very "professional", by the way). Is this really the case here? Or are some developers not up to the task and want to be "spoon-fed" by not having to code a better and more intuitive quest system or come up with challenging and interesting quests that might require a better thinking? I will just say one thing: I will challenge any quest writer any day, who thinks that an outdated MUD-like quest system provides for more challenging and interesting quests, with a much more challenging (and fun!) but devilishly logical quest based on a dialog tree and item system. Want hair-pulling quests and puzzles? That doesn't require a text parser. Ask Jane Jensen or Roberta Williams, if you don't believe me.

I see a lot of people post about quitting the game or ask why the server has been deserted and devoid of any interesting activity lately... Then I see some posts from the developers or some regulars wonder how the game can attract more players and keep the existing ones. Yes, really, such a dilemma...

A lot of additional good advice has been posted throughout the forums on the topics of "maps", "death" and "quests" already, so I won't repeat it here.

Bye.

[Karyuu]

Deserted server? You totally missed the point of that thread - might want to recheck it and find out exactly what it talks about. We have ~200 players on every single day.

But I see you're here just to get a rise out of people with your posting style, so be prepared for replies that are less than kind You're quite insulting towards the people who put their time and effort into this thing, and that never makes them want to bother paying further attention.

Toodles!

[Raa]

I'm just wondering, do the characters join the world after having experienced some sort of amnesia? Do they arrive on a vessel or through a portal from the surface or from a different world? Do they start out as infants on the first login?

Maybe, no, no, and maybe. Most everyone's life begins in Yliakum (some elves like to say they're from Dermoria, though). The Surface is out of bounds and inhospitable; and I suggest, from past experiences, that no one creates characters from another world. It's possible to start out as an infant, but then the game would be pretty boring, just crawling around and whacking rats with pacifiers... 

Might I also ask why the developers are so preoccupied with "penalties"?

They aren't, and you'd be surprised that this is the most forgiving game I've ever played. All you gotta do is perhaps waste a bit of time, but other than that, you don't lose anything. If you're someone who has a really short attention span, just go find some people nearby to roleplay with, or you can go outside and do something. Thirty minutes (or is it twenty-five?) isn't that long.

I mean a maze-like realm on a laggy server with a laggy client with NPC trainers (that players might require) and quests in it really the best design decision to handle "death"? This is a game, is it not? Unless the goal is to make it tedious and boring.

I actually like the Death Realm ('tis my favorite place, next to the sewers). And it's really simple; not that maze-like at all. But I guess it can be a bit maze-like, if all you do is whine about it instead of trying to get out of it. I've never lagged in there, though, and that may just be something about your client, computer, or connection. I also don't see what's wrong with the NPC trainers. Unfortunately I can't say anything about the quests since I've been stuck on one for months...

I don't see how it's a bad decision to handle death like that. Would you rather your character be permanently dead? Or lose all your items or skills?

And on that last part: try to make more constructive insults. Maybe you should find a solution instead of complaining.

[Kerol]

I also see numerous people (read: player base) post about changing the quest dialog system into a dialog tree based system instead of having to type everything manually, only to get accused of wanting to be "spoon-fed" (very "professional", by the way).

The discussion how the quest system should be has taken place about 5 years ago. It's far from being perfect still, but we won't change the basic concept, take it or leave it.

Also, devs come from the player base and we make the game as WE think it's right. If you want things changed, either make constructive posts and try to convince us or become dev and do it yourself <fullstop>

If you could get me out fo the DR, I might try playing again.  Heck, I have always wanted to become a developer, BUT...

Come on irc, channel #planeshift-gmtalk, ask for Kerol and I'll show you the way out.

[Under the moon]

I prefer talking to NPCs with text. Dedicated select an answer branching is a simplistic approach that I do not like in this type of game. Perhaps a hybrid system with simple [yes/no] [Continue] [Ready] [<choice of this> or <that>] and other standard answers would be good, but I do not see a good way to use it for everything. As a person who has written some quests, I would find that downright limiting.

You say you see a lot of people complaining because they do not like things, and would rather have them another way. You fail to mention the people who do like the direction a lot of the features are going. I'll give you the example of myself. I like the Deathrealm, but would actually like it to be even darker so you can't see far, with a 'glow' added to characters so you can see your feet. This is not possible yet. I like the death curse, and would like to make it if not harsher, at least more interesting. That means adding 'crawl' and 'stager' animations for at least five minutes, a tapering debuff, and a 'smell of death' status effect for the full half hour. I like the idea of talking to NPCs with text, though it needs a much better parser for me to enjoy it. I like the way crafting is set up, though would like it to be more interactive than pushing a button.

There are many things I do not like, such as the mechanics of combat (though I do like the base idea of stances), the mining system, the guild system, the road areas (I still get lost all the time trying to follow the roads), creature AI, the entire training system, character creation, and some other things. A lot of those systems are placeholders for when better systems are coded. However, these things take a lot of time to change, and do not make me want to quit the game.

[steuben]

actually there is a better and somewhat less obivous reason why the quests are writen like they are... well there are two. but i'll give the more important reason. dialogue trees are _a lot_ more work, for little benefit. it is faster to do quests as they are now, and easier to trouble shoot. with the trees you have to write atleast 50% more text, and then if problems arise wonder if it is an effect off the tree, the player or the engine. as it stands we just have to worry about the player and the engine.

btw:

I will just say one thing: I will challenge any quest writer any day, who thinks that an outdated MUD-like quest system provides for more challenging and interesting quests, with a much more challenging (and fun!) but devilishly logical quest based on a dialog tree and item system. Want hair-pulling quests and puzzles? That doesn't require a text parser. Ask Jane Jensen or Roberta Williams, if you don't believe me.

1. i remeber the earlier stuff so i doubt you are using a good example.
2. you're on. step up to the pen.

[nude0007]

As I said before, there was only one other player around when i landed in the DR, and they were as lost as I was.  My help request went unanswered.

As far as it being easy for some, if you want to call me stupid, that's fine, make yourself feel better at others expense.  By all means don't offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.  Glad I don't know you.  I notice you said the 12 year old girl doesn't play now.  Interesting.  Perhaps SHE is the smart one.

I might consider the offer of being led out, but I really don't see why we have to go through this DR mess at all.  Just the prospect of having to do it again makes me inclined to decline the offer.

200 people a day.  If you think that's a lot, you really do have more serious problems than just not listening to your players.

Oh, it would be GREAT if the parser worked at all, but programmers dropped parsers decades ago, because it takes forever to program them to handle even simple text.  they have been tried again occaisionally, but never successfully.  Everyone just thinks too differently.  It is a great idea, and surely next to just talking to the npc via a microphone, it would be the best way to go, if it worked, which it doesn't.

[Leama]

Oh, how it saddens me that a game can bring out such bitterness in people. Yet aren’t we lucky to have both this wonderful game and this great forum to be able to express our thoughts? So many work very hard for us to make it enjoyable.

I hope PS continues to grown and many more people get to experience it. Some will like it, some will dislike it, some will leave and some will stay. Many even return to find a totally new game and are amazed at what they find.

Let us all try to work together to make this the best experience for all.

Sadly if someone does not like the game I think they should just leave without making a scene and telling everybody how bad it is. I think many prospective players come to read the forum to see what people say about it. A positive outlook on the game would be nice for those to see.

This is just my opinion of course.

 

[neko kyouran]

There's nothing wrong with constructive criticism. Thats why this section of the forum exists after all.



But nude0007, you've made your points, and have heard the responses from the devs and they've given their reasons as to why they decided to go the route they are going with the game.

The way players interact with the NPCs aren't going to change much, and there's no more point discussing any other method, as it won't be used.

We thank you for your opinion on the game and your comments on how you think it could be made better, and hope you respect the Devs opinions on why they have chosen to do what they are doing.

If you are still dissatisfied, then I can only suggest that maybe PS just isn't for you, and you should look for another game to pass your time with.  And if you so wish, try coming back in a few years and see how the game has developed along since now, and see if it's more towards your liking.

Thanks. 

[Rizin]

As I said before, there was only one other player around when i landed in the DR, and they were as lost as I was.  My help request went unanswered.

The numbers of players cycle depending on what time you play, I hate hearing that there was not anyone available at that specific time, but that will not always be the case. I suggest logging back in and approaching the situation with a fresh perspective and/or looking for others in the same realm to aid you as has been suggested above.

As far as it being easy for some, if you want to call me stupid, that's fine, make yourself feel better at others expense.  By all means don't offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.  Glad I don't know you.  I notice you said the 12 year old girl doesn't play now.  Interesting.  Perhaps SHE is the smart one.

Saying something along the lines of "If you could get me out fo the DR, I might try playing again.  Heck, I have always wanted to become a developer, BUT..." is not constructive criticism, I'm sorry to say.

We do appreciate all actually constructive criticism as well as suggestions.

I might consider the offer of being led out, but I really don't see why we have to go through this DR mess at all.  Just the prospect of having to do it again makes me inclined to decline the offer.

Again, this isn't constructive, it's you expressing your displeasure over an integral part of the game. PlaneShift is striving to be a well rounded world, and death is part of the world. Death is also not something taken lightly in Yliakum.

200 people a day.  If you think that's a lot, you really do have more serious problems than just not listening to your players.

That number pleases me just fine and we do listen to players, in fact I'm here listening to you now and taking time to respond.

Oh, it would be GREAT if the parser worked at all, but programmers dropped parsers decades ago, because it takes forever to program them to handle even simple text.  they have been tried again occasionally, but never successfully.  Everyone just thinks too differently.  It is a great idea, and surely next to just talking to the npc via a microphone, it would be the best way to go, if it worked, which it doesn't.

Dialogue with npc's is improving, but as the game is developing, we have a mix of old and new and we work on upgrading the old.

As I've said before on the forums and on IRC - if you spend time with a quest trying to guess something, once you finally get it send me - via PM or email - 1) the name of the quest 2) what the npc said you were trying to answer and 3) what responses you tried that did not work.

I'll be more than happy to look over it and add anything that fits. We never turn down information.

Thank you for your time, your perspective, and your feedback. I can only hope that you look at PlaneShift in the future with an open mind that lives up to your claims.