What makes you not want to RP?

[Dajoji]

We can think this problem is solved by pointing at someone in the team and say "fix it!" but the bottom line is: Roleplay is not about game mechanics. It is about the community. To improve roleplay we must improve as a community. Do your part and RP will always be around.

One thing, if roleplaying was not about game mechanics, then Planeshift wouldn't have game mechanics. Game mechanics have impact on the RPing and these can be designed to support it, or support Gamers more. That's pretty much it.

I agree that mechanics have an impact on RP and that they should be designed to support it and that's the plan. Bugs and afterthoughts will be dealt with in the process. However, RP does not depend on mechanics. It depends on interaction. You can RP in a chatroom with nothing more than instant messages (not quite as exciting but it's possible) but you can't roleplay alone. A strong and welcoming community is the fundamental for good RP.

So if you think RP is diminishing don't look to the game mechanics for answer only. Look at what you do as well. It might be more relevant than you think.

(...)I am not questioning the intent of this kind of thread, just its effectiveness. Talking amongst yourselves rarely affects those who do not share your concerns as they are outside the conversation.(...)

That is why part of our effort as a community should be to promote our communication channels. Bring players to the forums. Direct them to our IRC channels or our bugtracker. We will all benefit from it.

[Garile]

It depends on interaction.

A strong and welcoming community is the fundamental for good RP.

Read what you just said and look how introductions have affected this. Both interaction is less becuase of it and the confusion for the new players is only more seeing new people will be ignored even faster being the 100th someone.

Do mechanics make roleplaying? No. Can mechanics hurt roleplaying? Ofcourse, becuase as you said yourself the basic thing you need is the chatwindow, the rest is all "filler", but it is infact the chatwindow that is being changed and communication that is being hampered.

Am I looking at the mechanics only? No, ofcourse there are other things that are hurdles for roleplaying aswell. I think I have pointed such hurdles out where I felt they were in earlier posts and there have been plenty of posts about those subjexts.

[zorbels]

I think the point to this whole thread (correct me if I am wrong Dajoji) is that it is the community who makes the RP (and also to figure out why the community feels that RP has died). If the community isn't doing it's part in that of course the game will feel empty of RP. Sure the visual and mechanics of the game helps make it fun, and gives us something to RP with but over all Dojoji is right, it takes ....

A strong and welcoming community is the fundamental for good RP.

So if people keep saying that RP in PlaneShift is dieing, then that kind of reflects on us as a community and we need to do something about it. Dajoji has posted a ton of links that helps the community get things on a role or fixed or heard. We should use these tools more often and take matters into our own hands as a community instead of relying on the games visual, mechanics and Devs/GM's to fill in the blank spots. (Not saying it is ok to change settings though :/) If everyone did a little roleplaying we wouldn't be hearing that RP was dieing.


 

[Dajoji]

You are right. Flaws and bugs can affect interaction but features need to be tested for the game to progress. The introduction system is bound to be adjusted. The Devs wouldn't make a poll about it if they were not going to take into consideration the players' opinions. Nobody has said the system will stay as is afaik.

The process can be difficult but the damage is not irreparable if we focus on strengthening the community while an effective solution is figured out. After all, if the introduction system is not the only thing affecting RP and we know it is being looked at, why can't we address other things we're not doing much about yet? The new introduction system is merely an isolated incident and it will eventually pass but if we neglect to grow as a community we will drag that weight all along.

[Nikodemus]

There is the accessability problem.
Problems with mouse targetting, because clicking an object, you can be sure you click the right spot. You waste time because of that and that may be a reason why people read descriptions of others rarely.
There are loads of objects in the world with custom descriptions, to increase out knowledge about setting and enchant out RPing experience. But so what there are loads of them, you never know that some of the objects you look at can be clicked because nothing indicate that.
The context menu appear with too big delay. Waiting for an action after you choose an option from it takes another while. It is discouraging.

The NPCs know a lot, You could do their quests in teams, with someone else, you have just met - who happened to talk with the NPC when you are. But he say, out of nothing, "type give me quest", while you would like to actually RP all whe way from the start to the end. Is the NPC dialog in current form really that much RP encouraging?

This are all game mechanics.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Lol when we tried to do quests with triggers other than "give me quest" this is what happens to players.

[Nikodemus]

Who said, your job is easy? ;P
I would render the questing, NPC system to be the toughtst of everything developed in planeshift, because you have to script so many possiblities. 
IMO it is incredibly hard to create computer version of something what should answer like thinking human.

I can't say it is your fault that the player reacted the way he did, but he did it, so I'm writing about. The game mehanics failed to show him the right RP beaviour and the RP community was also not enough so he would try RPing that with me.

But please don't ask me what would i do, because my major idea for improvement to the NPC system was rejected (in fact idea of someone smarter than me in this field) so I gave up and focused on what i do best - art.

[Irgendwer]

me puts his asbestos underwear on, trying to answer the question

"Why do I not want to RP?"

Well in a nutshell, I am afraid the simple answer is: The environment is not
fit for roleplay (please read the whole blurp, get yourself a banana split
and allow enough time to pass to cool down before hitting "reply"). The   
problem is not, that roleplay is not encouraged, but rather that it is   
encouraged to a point, where it has the opposite effect of being
discouraged.

It starts with character generation, which in my opinion is currently broken
by design. If you choose the custom way (and most people do) and build a   
character, that is not physically strong, you'll literally be getting
nowhere.
However if you put emphasizes on strength and endurance to not spend most of
your gametime resting, you'll likely end up with a background, that does not
fit the role you'd like to play. Even if it does, you quickly realize, that
the generated "backgroundstory" is exactly that: Generated. A stereotype
without uniqueness and personality. In other words: A character without     
character. Hard to follow /tip "Rememeber: Unique characters make the game
fun" with that.
In my opinion (sorry for derailing into gamedesign here),
charactergeneration should be a three step process:

1. Select race
2. Select general type
3. Select subtype

Your general type would be the generic choice of what your character would
preferably be (e.g. figther, mage, crafter, thief, merchant) and generally
affect you stats. Your subtype would be the role you actually like to play 
(e.g. fighter/knight, fighter/mercenary, fighter/hunter, crafter/smith,     
crafter/alchemist, mage/battlemage, mage/summoner, ... you gett the idea)   
and affect the skills you get. This system allows novice players to create a
character fast, without risking to come up with something unplayable (e.g.
the basis for a powerfull mage, that is so weak, it cannot cross hydlaa 
without resting). It does not force an unloved background on anyone (yes, I
know, most people will delete their characterdescription anyway to replace 
it with something fitting their style better. But whats the point of wasting
time on implementing a backgroundsystem if nobody cares for the result?).   

The next issue I have is with the tutorial system. Not, that I generally
consider it a bad thing (quite contrary), the problem is more, that it gives
the novice player the impression, that roleplay is of vital importance and
dropping OOC is a crime punishable by death. The cautious player will
therefore choose to avoid getting into trouble by simply not interacting with
other people at all. Keep in mind: Not everyone new to PlaneShift has RPG
experience and most people having RPG experience also know, that there is no
"one right way" to RP. Not talking to other players simply is the safe way
not to do anything, someone else could consider wrong and /report able.

One think I particularly consider a nuisance is the [ooc bracket] rule. It
is utmost unpractical as can be demonstrated by a simple example: Consider
two crafters roleplaying their profession. You'd expect them to quarrel   
about best crafting techniques. There are wonderfull RP opportunities in
trying to sell their wares. How do you do this without mentioning quality (a
property about your wares, which your character does not really know)? The 
answer is: You don't. Or at least not without hedging around the subject in
complicated ways. Most roleplay situations inevitably include a few OOC
lines, it is absolutly tedious to constantly think about whether you need
brackets or not. Also you'd think, that if someone is into RP, s/he can
decide herself if a line is OOC or not. Putting the brackets there is pretty
much a way of telling the other: "Ok, I think you are to stupid to recognize
OOC yourself, therefore I help you with visual aids". An impolite thing in
my opinion. The rule should simply be: Keep OOC to tells/group/guild if   
possible and if not, at least try to be in a place where you do not disturb
anyone.

Last but not least, my biggest bone to pick is with the community itself.
Namely the self proclaimed ulber roleplayers and rule feticists. Sifting
through the forums, one can find numerous posts of people, who'd want to
restrict any conversation to RP only (I seem to even remember someone who   
even wanted the tell channel be monitored by GM's for correct behaviour). While
this is not encouraging in itself (see above ... the possibility of getting
banned for OOC tells would be the biggest motivation not to say something at
all), one might actually want to observe the roleplay performed in
planeshift, which is usually (rare gems apart) the most boring and most
stupid drivel imagineable. In other words: Not enjoyable and therefore not
worth wasting time on it. I a fictive conversation like the following should
be the norm, I'd consider talking with an ulbernaut more fun (disclaimer:   
The following is not an actual conversation, but a construction made up from
sniplets of common "roleplay").

[Setting: A Self Proclaimed Ulber Roleplayer (SPUR) camping the sewer
entries, hoping to "roleplay" someone into his guild]

SPUR: Hello Sire, nice to meet you.

("Hello Sire"? "Nice to meet you"? Dude, you just saw me crawling from the
sewers, my leather combo is torn and I have a smell on me, even flies find 
repulsive. I'm covered in gore, my pockets are full of critter guts and I   
didn't even care to sheat my daggers. What in the world makes you think,
that calling me "sire" is in any way the proper form to address me or that
there is even pleasure in meeting me?)

ME: Uhm ... pleassure

SPUR: Well good sir, care to join me for a drink in the tavern?

(Sure, why not? We just met for the first time and you are obiviously charmed
by me "eau de toilette", it makes perfect sense, that we should go to the
temple of roleplay, aka the tavern and worship the most powerful idol, ever
known to the roleplayer, the HOLY BEERMUG. Just allow me, to go to the 
library first, so I don't make any mistakes, roleplaying it. I mean, there 
should be whole shelves of books just about mugs: How to order them, how to
transport them, how to hold them, ways to drink from, stories of famous
mugs,... WHAT IS IT WITH THAT OBSESSION, "ROLEPLAYERS" SEEM TO HAVE WITH
BEVERAGES?! Gosh, do me a favour and never visit a pub in reallife, the
excitement might kill you!)

ME: No thank you (with a slight turn of red in the face).

SPUR: Friend, what ails thee?

("What ails me"? "What ails me"? I'll tell you, what ails me: SPUR's like
you, that constantly seem to confuse roleplay, the enacting of a character
with the enacting of Shakespear, because they think thats the way people
talked back in those days. I have news for you: They didn't and speaking in
complicated, perceived poetic grammar just makes chatting harder, which I
have no intention to continue with you).

[Zan]

Irgendwer, your vision of planeshift roleplay is very skewed. I suggest you go out there and experience things before thinking up any more situations that rarely happen. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I'm very certain that it's not done by 95% of the roleplayers on planeshift. So if, by chance, that was really an experience you had, it's an exception.

The old english spewing, treating everyone as royalty sort of character is a very common stereotype that people who are not into roleplay put on us roleplayers though.

Either way, just saying if that last bit about the community is a reason for you not to roleplay .. it's an invalid reason, not existing in reality.

[Raa]

Irgendwer, your vision of planeshift roleplay is very skewed.

I thought he was joking? I thought it was funny...  Hm, I should stop skimming.

[Rayken]

Are you sure you've been playing Planeshift and not some other game?  I have never heard anyone speak like that in PS, nor have I met self-proclaimed Ulber (or Uber for that matter) Role Players.  Sometimes the term Uber is used as in insult meaning elitist (generally when one party finds another party's RP too restrictive), but I have never heard anyone refer to their selves as uber.

[Aiwendil]

In my opinion (sorry for derailing into gamedesign here),
charactergeneration should be a three step process:

1. Select race
2. Select general type
3. Select subtype

Your general type would be the generic choice of what your character would
preferably be (e.g. figther, mage, crafter, thief, merchant) and generally
affect you stats. Your subtype would be the role you actually like to play 
(e.g. fighter/knight, fighter/mercenary, fighter/hunter, crafter/smith,     
crafter/alchemist, mage/battlemage, mage/summoner, ... you gett the idea)   
and affect the skills you get.

Wouldn't this lead to characters with no background story at all? The current character creation system shows player, that a background story is important. It surly isn't perfect, but just choosing a race, type and subtype doesn't sound good to me. A new player will select the kind of character he wants to play and won't spent any time on thinking about the background of his character.

But whats the point of wasting
time on implementing a backgroundsystem if nobody cares for the result?).  

Maybe to help players with no experience to find a starting point for their story?

One think I particularly consider a nuisance is the [ooc bracket] rule. It
is utmost unpractical as can be demonstrated by a simple example: Consider
two crafters roleplaying their profession. You'd expect them to quarrel   
about best crafting techniques. There are wonderfull RP opportunities in
trying to sell their wares. How do you do this without mentioning quality (a
property about your wares, which your character does not really know)?

I always thought that's why the OOC-bracket rule is there. Longer OOC conversations shouldn't be in the main chat tab or the auction tab. You could use /tell(s) for this. I always thought the brackets are for situations where some short OOC information is necessary (like the quality). Ah, and don't we have some nice attributes for ingots and stocks now (like inferior). I think those attributes could be used to advertise your stocks.

Ok, I think you are to stupid to recognize OOC yourself, therefore I help you with visual aids

What about those situations, where you as a player want to tell another player your opinion (or that you can't stop laughing before the screen). Sometimes it's very hard to distinguish what your character says, or what you as a player say

And about the Shakespear part...I agree with Zan there

[zorbels]

The next issue I have is with the tutorial system. Not, that I generally
consider it a bad thing (quite contrary), the problem is more, that it gives
the novice player the impression, that roleplay is of vital importance and
dropping OOC is a crime punishable by death. The cautious player will
therefore choose to avoid getting into trouble by simply not interacting with
other people at all. Keep in mind: Not everyone new to PlaneShift has RPG
experience and most people having RPG experience also know, that there is no
"one right way" to RP. Not talking to other players simply is the safe way
not to do anything, someone else could consider wrong and /report able.

If there is such thing as a "cautious player" why wouldn't they chose to explore and ask questions about OOC allowances to players through /tells, or the forums, or IRC #planeShift or PM's to obvious well established players? I find it hard to believe that a player would play PlaneShift and just keep to themselves due to warnings about OOC behavior in the tutorial. When I first started playing PlaneShift I had absolutely no RPG experience. I was able to pick up on the way the systems in PlaneShift work when it comes to OOC talk. It isn't that hard, unless of course the player doesn't have any common sense. There is to much information like players guides, threads (the forums), the planeshift offical website, IRC #PlaneShift and helpful community members for this "cautious player" to access and that does not warrant an excuse to feel like they have to live in the shadows of the PlaneShift community for fear of using OOC talk.

{NOTE: @ work and will add my other thoughts on this post when I get a chance. )

Keep OOC to tells/group/guild if   
possible and if not, at least try to be in a place where you do not disturb
anyone.

This would work if people followed the rules. But they don't and still continue to talk in public chat with [] brackets.  It seems impossible to get players to understand this, especially when new to the game. Hence the tutorial that you dislike telling players about OOC and the penalties. That was made for new players to get the idea of how important RP is in this community.

............ self proclaimed ulber roleplayers and rule feticists.

Wow, I really am sorry for who ever has given you this impression.

If there are players who are quoting the rules then this tells me that they take pride in the game which isn't a bad thing. They would appreciate new comers and old players stuck in their ways to folllow the rules so that we can all enjoy the gaming experience PlaneShift has to offer.

As for Rper's who are self proclaimed .... well it is usually those players who are high up on themselves. Most players don't want to have anything to do with RPer's like that. They are difficult to RP with and it becomes more of a headache then fun. Also it makes some of the community members want to avoid characters like that. With the example you posted above, if it were me I would have just walked away. What's the point in trying to RP with someone who obviously isn't into it? Why put yourself in a stressful situation like that?

  If these are the type of RPer's you are hanging around with it makes no wonder that you haven't had great experiences in PlaneShift. Try talking with those who have been in game and are established characters. Usually they have alot of Roleplaying going on around them and have great tips on Rping and the game inself. They are also friendly and will introduce you to others in game so that you can eventually fill up that buddy list of yours. 

[StitchedChin]

Sheesh, 6 posts flew by while I was making my little post.  I disagree with Irgendwer on the character creation.  I think that is a nice change of pace from other RPGs.  It gives you a good sense of what the player is trying to accomplish as you get to know them.  I think it could be developed more so it feels like you are "born and raised" into the world and not just appear out of thin air.  For example, I have a level 9 in repair weapons, yet I have never repaired a weapon.  Be nice if through the tutorial, my initial stats and skills are my main goal before I get transported to the Hydlaa.  It'd be like my childhood, development period...  Anyway, here's my opinion on making a role playing community...

Maybe someday someone will have an answer to the whole role playing question, but I think mechanics/gameplay has everything to do with the amount of role playing that goes on.  You'll get a certain amount of role playing if you slap in a chat window, but if you want the majority of the PS population to be participating, then you need to have more options open for them to do what they like to do.  If you only offer pubs, mining, monster killing, exploring, etc. then you will get minimal players doing what you think roleplaying is.  I know right now, the last thing I want to do when I am "gaming" is sit around a pub and chit chat while I try to type how a dwarf would talk, and drinking a computerized beer.  I want to be drawn in a new world that has minimal bounderies.  The world has to be changing and adapting to the players actions.  How many platinum ores does the local merchant really need and where are they all going...  Why does Gulm need the same package from every player that asks him if he has a quest for them...   If you create a dynamic world where one player can join a pickup game in log tossing or barrell rolling, and another can join the local blacksmithing beginners class, and another can set out on a quest with a group of other adventurers to discover the secret of the two headed kikirii or off to catch the band of thieves that just stole your pants, you'll have more players trying to become the kind of character they want to be.  I think it is possible.

[Mythryndel]

1. No background story means that you have to actually... *GASP*... talk to the person to find out about them... almost like real life.

2. The story above... happened to me less than 30 minutes after I first entered the game. Almost verbatim.

3. All but 3 encounters I have had with random people, devolve into a invite to join their guild.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the game and I will keep playing. However, the in-game community at large is, in my opinion:

1. Too segregated (in high school they were called "clicks") and don't associate with people they don't know.
or
2. Trying to get you to a different tab so as not to be /punished for ooc chat.

I keep trying, but this is largely what I get in response if people bother to talk back to me at all.

Sorry if I seem a little short, but people seem to want to pretend that things are different than they are, and those that publicly disagree get flamed.