A touch of outright bigotry

[Lavarocked]

I just got back to PlaneShift now that the update is here. I created a new character today, and due to the amount of character points I had left, I chose Atheist for the religion aspect. Every selection has a short description, and here's what PlaneShift Steel Blue says about atheism:

"Despite the obvious presence of Gods and Goddesses throughout Yliakum, some deny that these beings are worthy of worship. Most people consider atheists foolish at best and a condemned object of pity at worst. Atheists will bear the worst effects of the penalty for dying since no god will grant them succor from it. The atheist does not look outside itself for truth. People attracted to this faith: People who have had a bad experience with religion, anti-social people, staunch individualists, and the irrational."

This is wrong on so many levels and patently insulting. I don't know who on the staff has such a hangup but on the next update I demand to see this taken down. I've been a member of this community for several years now and this is the most brash display of poor professionalism you have exhibited, and noting recent work on the game, that is saying a mouthful. I expected to continue to use this forum to report bugs and talk among the close-knit PlaneShift community but instead I am using it to ask you not to slander so viciously a completely reasonable and rational viewpoint.  Atheists are not what they tell you at church, and one does not need to have a "bad experience with religion" not to believe in things without evidence. Don't push your insane opinions of atheists on me or anyone else playing this game. I don't know what your religious convictions are, but regardless they should not factor into creating this game. Ever. These words are disturbing and disgusting, and it will be a bright day on Earth when the majority of people begin to understand that.

Oh, and I realize that similarly negative character traits are listed for the Black Flame and Dakkru religions, but these are after all murderous blood cults and not non-participation in church. Hey why don't we throw "Jewish" down there, maybe bring up the Blood Libel, you know, that 12th century thing where everyone claimed they drink the blood of Christian infants for sustenance. People attracted to this religion: Accountants, screenwriters, the greedy, people with big noses, etc. If you're going to be crudely offensive and embarrass yourself off the face of the world you may as well go all out. And at least if you published a venomous, outrageous lie about Jews you would be rightfully torn asunder by decent society. Not so, for atheism.

I still picked Atheist. I am waiting for the game to stop slandering me as I play. If it does not, I'm going to uninstall.

[Eliseth]

Dude, you do realise that theres a difference between the real world and Yliakum right? The atheist referred to in the game is not the same as a real life atheist. In the settings there is no doubt the gods exist, it is fact, therefore atheism, as it exists in the real world, can't exist in Yliakum, that is why atheism has been given a new meaning in game.

And another thing, the religion you pick in game isn't your ACTUAL religion, its the religion of your character. Don't be offended by something that isn't real.

[Tuxide]

I agree with Lavarocked, but only because I've never considered a real-life atheist to be offended over how one is described in PlaneShift, assuming Lavarocked is one.  I think what the original poster is implying is that perhaps there is some political meaning behind this.

[jorrit]

I'm an atheist too but I'm not in the least offended by this. Why should I? It is only fiction. There are plenty of books where atheists (or other groups like religious groups) are made to look bad. It is not reality so why would it trouble me?

Greetings,

[Eliseth]

There is no political meaning at all, it's simply a different path your character can take. And there is absolutely no reason to be offended by it, because it doesn't reflect on you personally, but a fictional character. Atheism has a different meaning in Yliakum, end of story. The reason they are described as irrational is because the gods are blatantly obviously there, they created the world they live in and they DO deserve to be acknowledged. Atheists in Yliakum are generally disgruntled citizens, this isn't to say they are ALL like that.

[Arerano]

the obvious presence of Gods and Goddesses throughout Yliakum Arerano isn't an atheist, yet the gods' presence is everything else than obvious. How many of your characters ever got a proof? I'd rather say that people told people which told other people which told other people which told other people... etc... that there's this or that existance, be it a god or not.. and everyone added a bit here and there but proof.. well.

Indeed it is fiction, yet,... hmm, never mind. I apparently can't express that one in a hardly misunderstandable way.

[Tuxide]

Perhaps I didn't make my previous post clear enough.  What I meant was that what I see in the original post is not necessarily an offended atheist but an ideological analysis of the game.  When you learn how to appreciate things, such as music and movies, you learn how to analytically view the work--how to peel apart its layers to uncover the underlying meanings behind it.  Whether or not the producer intended it.  For example, one could argue that PlaneShift deals with racism by not dealing with racism:  By making every Ylian male the same skin color (and I know this wasn't true in Molecular Blue, and of course will not be in the future), a political point of view is implied.  All books and movies, and thus computer and video games, have a political point of view--whether intended--based on the beliefs of the producer, such as how he thinks "the world works" today.  Fifty years from now people can see PlaneShift in a completely different way than the rest of us.

[Jekkar]

The thing that seems to bother him I think is the fact that the writer was inspired by how some people and probably him/her too look at atheism in real life. He/she is in some way forcing his/her view on other people through the way he/she wrote the description on atheism. Developers are human yes, but they still require to possess some kind of objectivity when writing these things. We don't all have the same view on matters, and when we enter Yliakum and play our characters we still drag along some of our personal views and traits.

And in all the years I have played planeshift I have never seen much proof of godlike presence either. Unless you consider flashy sparkly pink lights and statues proof.

[Eliseth]

Tuxide, I see your point, however, I don't think that applies in this case, the original poster was quite obviously confusing real Atheism with PS Atheism. Just because the developers stereotype characters of in game religions, doesn't mean that they have the same opinions about people of real religions. His comment about Jews makes it obvious that he believes the developers to have dogmatic views about real religions, and he is, quite obviously, offended (and wrongly so).

The developers of PlaneShift have simply created the general views and mind-set of the Yliakum community as a whole. If we were to accept his argument, animal rights activists would start complaining that the developers condone the mindless killing of animals.

[Donari Tyndale]

* Donari Tyndale points in the secret garden "Take a look at Xiosia."

Guys, your characters still live when they die. Yliakum was created 750 years prior to the in game time and people would still remember tales from that point of time. The gods are there, and anyone who refuses to accept that is obviously mentally disturbed (IC). Unlike in RL, the gods have been there and seen more often then in wonders and visions, they are even still there.

[jorrit]

* Donari Tyndale points in the secret garden "Take a look at Xiosia."

Guys, your characters still live when they die. Yliakum was created 750 years prior to the in game time and people would still remember tales from that point of time. The gods are there, and anyone who refuses to accept that is obviously mentally disturbed (IC). Unlike in RL, the gods have been there and seen more often then in wonders and visions, they are even still there.

Exactly. In Yliakum you almost have to be stupid to be an atheist. The Gods are obviously existant and being an atheist is a good way to make sure you get no God to protect you.

Greetings,

[Velh Krome]

Firstly, since the Death Realm is probably something very natural to the people (and according to some chars I may wonder if its even casual), I am not yet convinced the life cycle of the people proves for gods' existence unavoidably. No one on earth would say "I awake every morning, hence god exists!". If you want to compare, then consider perma-death.
Secondly, after all nothing could have been transported over time (those 750 years) than tales and legends. I think, the only way Yliakums's people could prove gods' existence by a straight experience that wont leave doubt.
So jorrit, you say one would "almost have to be stupid" to not believe tales told by ancestors?

[jorrit]

Firstly, since the Death Realm is probably something very natural to the people (and according to some chars I may wonder if its even casual), I am not yet convinced the life cycle of the people proves for gods' existence unavoidably. No one on earth would say "I awake every morning, hence god exists!". If you want to compare, then consider perma-death.
Secondly, after all nothing could have been transported over time (those 750 years) than tales and legends. I think, the only way Yliakums's people could prove gods' existence by a straight experience that wont leave doubt.
So jorrit, you say one would "almost have to be stupid" to not believe tales told by ancestors?

There is a bit of a difference here. First 750 years is a lot less then 2000 years and even 2000 years ago it was Jezus (and not God) that was present on earth. Additionally even 2000 years ago some people doubted that Jezus represented God. This would not have been the case with Talad or Laanx. It was pretty obvious that these are gods.

Greetings,

[Velh Krome]

OK, thats a point, still though I would see it as not much more than a "stronger hint" for gods' existence, never evidenced. Even if it was the granpa to have told about it, its still a tale.

Why not having those existant gods creating some wellplaced miracle now and then?
(and not talking about letting it rain, having plants grow or giving babies' birth, but something outstanding and monumental)
See, what I am having a conflict with, is that rule that gods mustnt interfere in Yliakum (rule-wise, or like GMs arent allowed to impersonate laanx etc) - right that makes me wonder why do they "have" to exist, while on the other hand they "mustnt" be around that obviously =/ Consdering that rule, why not having some forums-posts to be taken as IC, that describe those occasional miracles? (hope I didnt miss anything alike)

[jorrit]

Why not having those existant gods creating some wellplaced miracle now and then?

Isn't a server crash a sufficient miracle for you? How often does that happen in the real world? :-)

Greetings,