Thoughts on train armour/weapons.

[Janner]

 Been trying to figure out why you need to train armour?
If no training at all, 1 hit from a rogue will kill you, yet if you have say 10, at best it will scratch you. Now do not know how you think about this, but armour is same, for both yet does not protect same, now why is this?
We have repair armour, so I think this should determine how well you are defended.

 Now lets think about repair weapons. Do not know about you but in real life I would use a wet stone to sharpen my kitchen knifes or garden tools. I have had one for years, it still will out live me, so why do we have to by over and over repair kits?

[Under the moon]

Armor is equal, yes, but the person wearing it is not. A 'newbie' to armor will not know its weaknesses, and will rely on it too much to protect them. The newbie will take blows directly on their armor, damaging both themselves and their gear. They can also get hit in the weak spots, as they do not know how to protect those areas. Another detraction is they do not know how to move fast with the new weight.

A pro, on the other hand, is used to the weight of his armor, and knows its limits. He will use it to deflect or avoid a blow instead of trying to absorb it. He also know the weak spots very well, and can maneuver to keep those covered.

The repair kits? I don't know. Likely a code thing.

[Entevir]

Quite frankly hitting a steel plate is the same whether a well trained knight or a simple peasant straight from the field is wearing it.The amount of damage the armours deflect should be the same for everyone.But increased skill yields less damage to the armour from constant use and a higher probability to receive no damage at all.
Oh and most armours are made to protect evenly all around the wearer.Except for some differentiations from standards of armouring.Any weakness in the armour is a structural fault and it realy is hard to maneuvre your stomach out of the way when it has no joints.Then again sometimes functionality has a little more functionality than some want.

[Miaua]

Some of our opinions about armor...
Besides complains, there are some global thoughts about it's working and so... 

http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=29733.0

[Under the moon]

No, 'hitting a steel plate' is not the same on a rookie or a veteran. Armor (plate type) will dent it the wearer does not know how to turn to deflect some of the impact of the blow, or move so it lands on a stronger point of the armor. The wearer will get bruises and even broken bones -through- the plate. Scale, chain, and leather rely even more on the wearer's skill to avoid injury. Armor is there as a last resort to keep the wearer from being killed if their skills fail them.

Yes, some hits will be equal. A pile arrow, for instance, will kill the guy who has been in armor from infancy as fast as it will kill the rookie. Surprise hits will also be the same across the board, as skill is taken out of the equation.

But if you are saying that in full and equal armor, the rookie and pro of equal strength and agility will do equally well at defending themselves against an equal foe, then you would have some researching to do.

[Zan]

Anyone can absorb some blows while wearing armor ... not anyone can fight with armor though.

Armor skill represents your ability to win a fight when clad in armor, in my eyes. Put a peasant in plate and he'll be run down like a puppet. Sure he might survive with some bruises in his tin can but he won't be an addition to the battle either and when the enemy is done taking everyone else down they'll come back to finish the helplessly armored peasant off. Without training a set of armor is a hindrance, not an aid.

[Janner]

 Some good points, however when you buy the item, would you not ask about the pros and cons,  before buying ? there for no training would be needed, as you would use agility and your weapon training in combination to defend the areas of weakness. Also when body development is in, this too would be of use in this, just seams silly the amount of training you do to get a high level, when all you need to know is were the weak spots are in the armour.

[Prolix]

It would seem to me that every set of armor has a different balance and that damage would alter the characteristics of a single set. It would take practice to be able to adjust to these differences.

I believe though that the problem is not related to armor per se but that all skills seem to have identical progression.  I think unbounded advancement is not a great idea. Two hundred is more than enough levels for any skill and the higher you make available skill levels the bigger stats you will need to give to the mobs in order to maintain a challenge. If we take the percentage of the maps that are finished as representative of other aspects of the game are we going to see 1000+ levels in skills/stats? It just doesn't seem reasonable.

[Kaityra]

I don't think that there is a single armour in the world which is able to withstand a full direct blow of any weapon, not even a set of full plate armour. But even if it did you would have serious problems not to be knocked over by the blow itself or wearing yourself out by just taking a few steps. So the best way is still to not being hit even if wearing armour. In order to not being hit you have to move. And with the additional weight, stiffness, reduced field of view, etc. of an armour you have to train moving and fighting in this armour. The purpose of an armour is to save you from attacks that slipped through your defense or evasive manouver. The less the armour gets hit the better it saves you. That's where the skill with an armour comes in. Knowing the weakness of an armour and avoiding being hit there is just one part of training.
But please let's stop us overanalysing this game as it is just a game. And if this game has a skill for armour...

[MustangMR]

One way to look at armor skills is in how you use it.  Lets say leather armor is more than just a leather shirt.  There are straps that have to be fastened, various aspects of it have to stitched together on your body to provide the best protection.  If you lacked the skill to wear it correctly, you may as well not have any armor on at all.  Say for instance, you didn't have the skill to even be able to tell if you put the armor on backwards or not.  Or you didn't fasten things correctly and it ends up flopping all over your body.  But as you skill up, you begin to learn tricks to secure it to your body better.  You learn ways of putting it on to protect critical parts better.  You slowly get used to the weight of it till it feels like it's a part of you and it doesn't hinder your movement.  That's how you should look at your skill.  Your skill is what you do with the tools, not the quality of the protection the leather itself provides.

That said, there should be differences in the protection you get from each type of armor.  I'm not experienced enough in the game world to know how those mechanics work yet.  Things do seem a bit out of whack in this respect at this time in the games development, but I'm not sure where.

[citizen]

I don't think that there is a single armour in the world which is able to withstand a full direct blow of any weapon, not even a set of full plate armour. But even if it did you would have serious problems not to be knocked over by the blow itself ...

Thats why used to wear soft absorber clothes under chainmail or platemail armor. They tested chain mail against arrows. the viking armor was better but still went in too deep. but when they put behind it the soft clothe the vikings wore under it, the penetration dropped well below any lethal one.

[Kaityra]

Thats why used to wear soft absorber clothes under chainmail or platemail armor. They tested chain mail against arrows. the viking armor was better but still went in too deep. but when they put behind it the soft clothe the vikings wore under it, the penetration dropped well below any lethal one.

Well, it was not arrows that I had in mind but something like a nice mace or hammer, or even nice bastardsword.

[Kaerli]

Agreed with Kaitirya.  (sp?)  All armor has some backfacing: for instance, if you're wearing a Kevlar vest and get shot with a handgun in the chest, you'll be alive, but in quite a bit of pain from the spread-out impact of the bullet.  There's also weight and distribution-dependent effects on mobility, as well as the effects of incantations on armor.

[Zan]

I don't think that there is a single armour in the world which is able to withstand a full direct blow of any weapon, not even a set of full plate armour.

Define full direct blow and I might agree or disagree.

This is why slashing and piercing damage exists. Any set of armor is useful in stopping slashing damage. The heavier, the more and a set of full plate can stop any type of slashing attack, except maybe that of an axe, without efforts. Piercing attacks like a spear, sword or dagger jab, arrow, etc. are another story though.

Did you know that in late medieval times plate armor was tested by letting it stop a bullet? When you bought a new set of armor it often had a huge dent in it. The dent showed that a bullet was stopped effectively. Back then they had only round bullets of limited impact, mind you. So don't underestimate the stopping power of steel plate armor. Of course it's also true that you won't be hitting much when you're wearing full plate. It's only really useful for mounted knights to run people down. Imagine fighting with 30 kg of extra weight on you, nearly no visibility and very rigid mobility. Then we're not even talking about how hot it can get inside that tin can.

[Kaityra]

Define full direct blow and I might agree or disagree.

Quite simple: You put on armour and just stand there. I have a nice swing at you with a mace, then we will see how your armour and you deal with the blow. That is what I would call a full direct blow.
But as Planeshift is just a game with a certain amount of abstraction, these kind of discussion would probably lead us nowhere. I think enough points have been mentioned to see that putting on armour isn't enough. You have to familiarise yourself with the armour to put it to full effect hence the skill.