Author Topic: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"  (Read 8890 times)

Integrity

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German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« on: April 28, 2008, 12:07:27 am »
The same community that is linked to on the official PlaneShift website:

http://www.planeshift.it/other_languages.html

http://www.psde.de/

Is the official PlaneShift team aware of what's going on there or do they choose to turn a blind eye as long as it serves to promote the game?

They don't seem to have a problem with openly posting "SPOILERS" on their forums (using the [spoiler] tags that the forum recognizes) to all the in-game quests. All their admins are well aware of it and even encourage it. Moreover, they have their own Wiki (that you need to register for) that contains even more "SPOILERS". Some of the posters there who post some of the "SPOILERS" (as in the actual answers to quest puzzles) are also fairly regular posters here and will even defend the "NO SPOILERS" policy here. Am I the only one who sees some major hypocrisy going on both sites?

Before any angry posters lash out at me (which I'm sure they will try), I *LIKE* being able to post "SPOILERS" on the forum using the [spoiler] tags. People should be able to discuss the quests and decide for themselves whether they want to see a "SPOILER" or not. However, I question the main PlaneShift's team and German community's integrity when the "SPOILERS" are such a taboo here and people always get bitter responses when they post even a small excerpt from a dialog (without any actual answers/responses).

Just in case the main team here wasn't aware of it, what are you going to do about it? Are you going to remove the link to the German community from your main site now? Are you going to ask them to remove the spoilers? What are you going to do, if they don't? Or are you going to say that you're not responsible, put the blame on them but continue turning a blind eye and linking to them from your main site as long as it helps to promote the game? Think of it as an integrity test.

Make no mistake, this isn't posted to "dog out" the German community. In fact, I like their setup much better than the official site. However, I don't like the hypocrisy involved between both parties.

I won't bother wasting time arguing with anyone here. I'll simply leave it at that and check the main PS site in, say, a week or two to see if the link to the German PS site still exists and if there are any changes to the German community site. And, for example, if they make a spoiler forum private but still available to registered users (which won't change the fundamental problem). Then I'll know my answer.

By the way, the same applies to hypocrite guilds that post "SPOILERS" on their private forums but defend the "NO SPOILERS" policy on the official forum.

The point here is that you can't have it both ways.

The ball is in your court now. :)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 12:09:45 am by Integrity »

Karyuu

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2008, 12:41:48 am »
Woah, aggression :] Easy there.

Yeah, Talad will probably remove the link and send the community administrators an email asking them to follow our rules. Whether you like them or not, unfortunately they're going to be enforced. We don't regularly check the sites, and when they were added it was agreed that such practices would be avoided. Guess that was forgotten.

Thanks for the heads up.
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Velh Krome

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2008, 12:45:37 am »
Hipocrisy, hipocrisy..  ::) Isnt it more like posting spoilers is allowed as long as its in a restricted area? If I am not mistaking, its actually about posting spoilers in public areas.

As I can see it, both parties agree on allowing spoilers in certain areas, and having publically accessible areas free of such - not sure if thats what you are calling "hipocrisy";). Unless you would like to have the official forums here to have a spoiler section too.. =P

EDIT:
Quote
they're going to be enforced
Will we be "enforced" to clean our non-public forums of spoilers too (in case we had some=P)? lol
« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 12:47:26 am by Velh Krome »

Dajoji

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2008, 12:50:43 am »
I just visited the German forums and entered no password to see the spoilers. The only thing keeping me from reading them is that I don't speak German :-[.


Cebot

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2008, 12:56:45 am »
I have to agree with Velh. As far as I am concerned spoilers don't have anything to do in public areas where everyone can access them - in fact, such is forbidden.
Also there was a public spoiler list some time ago, which had to be made private. In my opinion spoilers have nothing to do in public areas, but - there's always a but, no? - in private areas, like guild forums they can be tolerated, depending on the way they are posted there.
I am all against plain spoiler lists, but I am for a list which tells a story about the quest, looks like a letter from someone to someone else, or simply is a record in a guilds _internal_ library - and in fact, we handle it this way in our guild.

Now to psde.de, I would have to have a look at their site again to get an opinion, but however, if they have spoilers listed, they should remove them, no matter if one needs to be registered for their site or not, this is because they are a public accessible community site and everyone is free to register there.

EDIT:
I actually see no hypocrisy with saying public spoilers are forbidden but private (guild internal) spoilers are allowed
« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 01:03:06 am by Cebot »
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Sen

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2008, 01:04:50 am »
[...]
Is the official PlaneShift team aware of what's going on there or do they choose to turn a blind eye as long as it serves to promote the game?

They don't seem to have a problem with openly posting "SPOILERS" on their forums (using the [spoiler] tags that the forum recognizes) to all the in-game quests.
How about speaking with the community before making a post like this?

I won't bother wasting time arguing with anyone here. I'll simply leave it at that and check the main PS site in, say, a week or two to see if the link to the German PS site still exists and if there are any changes to the German community site. And, for example, if they make a spoiler forum private but still available to registered users (which won't change the fundamental problem). Then I'll know my answer.
[...]
The ball is in your court now. :)
*doesn't really feel under integrity's command*
What I - in contrast to all others ;) -  agree to is that spoilers should be allowed, but Im aware that this won't happen ;) I also guess that a discussion about it would be endless again what speaks for locking this thread rather soon...

Anyways, just writing a post and saying you don't mind any reply is pretty rude.

Actually, I happen to have asked there for some kind of spoiler in irc recently (reason doesn't matter) and got a unison answer that they personally don't have spoilers and don't like them. Take this independant from what maybe is on the webpage.

For the german community; I've seen more people being helped there and more qualified than anywhere else!
Maybe that's a reason why I don't react well on this post...

To sum up... the way this is written looks more like a flaming than a start of a discussion about a things that are acutally questionable

Sen
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Taniquetil

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2008, 01:29:40 am »
Wow, awesome. What i just saw was someone who doesn't like spoilers (whatever they may say) create an alternate forum account and complain about what is going on in a completely different forum... Wow....

First off, what do you care about other people's "integrity" and "hypocrisy"? If it isn't the fact that they are posting spoilers that is a problem to you, why post about it? To bring it to people's attention? I don't think this has just been overlooked. Talad & Co run a pretty tight ship here.

Personally, I can't read German and I have no problem with the way they run things or the way things are run here. Spoilers or no spoilers, I don't care. I just don't see a reason to come crying home over something as stupid as other people's integrity.
"Only two things are really infinite: the Universe and human stupidity; and I'm not so sure about the former."             ~Albert Einstein

Karyuu

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2008, 01:33:56 am »
The original post was just someone going "Look! Someone is breaking your rule! What are you going to do about it? Huh? Huh? HUH?!" :) Just another tumbleweed trying to bring down a tree. I get the feeling s/he had nothing against the German community but rather delights in stirring the pot on this side of the fence. I find it ludicrous, but whatever.
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

neko kyouran

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2008, 04:05:48 am »
it's the internet.  immaturity runs rampant because most people think they are "anonymous"  i laugh at that kind of thinking myself.

as for the topic at hand.... I imagine they'll be requested to remove it all from public view, or their site will be disowned and removed from links on the official website.

having a list of spoiler material is fine.  sharing it with friends/guild mates/ etc is fine so long that access is restricted to the material.  posting spoiler material openly on the internet for anyone to simply click and see is discouraged on.  simple as that :)

and this is for kary since she brought it up:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_hKDp0Zlnk&NR=1

Kaityra

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2008, 09:29:36 am »
Yeah, great start on the forum Integrity, first post and you start with denounciating. Well, we will see how far your integrity goes.

Nikodemus

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2008, 10:54:04 am »
Spoilers shouldn't be used because they cause players to act with their characters in less real way.
Now, the whole problem with spoilers is that many people don't want to use them and others do. The group who complains that the other group has an edge over them, because they can find and complete quests faster for their valuable reward. *> This is why they are forbidden - to put everyone on the same level and to discourage people from coming into the group who spoil and encourage them to stay, to shape the community around RPing.

So, no public spoilers, i think that includes a site where all you need to do is fill registration form, activate with email and enjoy - thats public.
But fact is you can do nothing to put the spoileirs site down, but polite asking. It will be there, available through google or other means. AB could sue them for processing copyrighted material, but this isn't happening because of obvious reasons.
What about "private" spoilers used by tens of people?
IMO there should be heavy nay for them too, but since they are hard to track, many of our good friends use them, they are smart enough to deliver good RP even if spoiling, or noone likes to be the bad spy who digs them out and punish people using them... these spoilers are allowed even if spoilers are disallowed... yes there is a bit of hypocrisy there.
Afterall this makes people to join guilds because of ooc reasons - for spoilers. This allows an ooc edge over people who are not in a guild or refuse to use spoilers. This behaviour clearly stays against "*".

But here is another thing. The NPCs understanding of questions given to them is so low that ICly this should put them same as morons even though some of their answers are strongly oppoed to this. So, IMO there is really no reason why not use spoilers, which are also ooc and avoid the other ooc. So i'm really not suprised many people use spoilers
« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 12:59:56 pm by Nikodemus »



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Kaityra

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2008, 12:09:57 pm »
Spoilers shouldn't be used because they cause players to act with their characters in less real way.

Sorry, please don't make me laugh. From what I see every day in Planeshift this can't be any problem at all.

Now, the whole problem with spoilers is that many people don't want to use them and others do.

That's why Spoilers are or should be marked with [Spoilers] in the subject and "[s!][/s!]" in the text. You can then decide to read it or leave it.

Nikodemus

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2008, 12:34:13 pm »
o wow, are you just strongly into spoiling or are you just proving something for the sake of doing it for some reasons?
As for the first part, so you are saying that if someone gets a glyph with spoilers path, he did it because he is smart or rather because he machancally retyped some certain phrases? If everyone are running around with glyphs of doom, which are supposed to be very rare and unknown to most, is it looking realistic? Yeah, I actually want you to answer this question. Go laugh if it makes you feel better.

As for the second part, please learn quoting the full context, rather than part of it, which isn't telling anything at all.



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Cebot

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2008, 12:53:05 pm »
I don't think it is an issue of whether they use some tags to make it only visible by mouseover or not, I think the issue is, that you do not need to be registered at all to view it. This way _everyone_ _can_ access them and even google will reveal them in plaintext searches.

I am not sure if Talad will allow them to keep the spoilers if they made it accessible only for registered users, since it is not a guild page but a big community page. The decission, however, lays by Talad and by the admin of psde.de.

The main problem with spoilers is, that they encourage to use them rather than trying it on your own. I personally know a lot of people who do that, but also know a lot of people who first try it on their own and if they really can't find the answer to a riddle, or the correct phrase they look into a spoiler list, or ask friends for help. It has been stated often enough, that NPC's are not yet that smart and that the quest system is still far from being perfect, so it is understandable that spoilers are needed sometimes - but those who _only_ use spoilers to get all the rewards from the quests discourage the devs work. It's a lot of work to write a quest, from getting the idea for it, over making it fit into the settings to actually write the script for it.

@Integrity. I don't know who you are, but seriously, the way you have put it is pretty rude. You wanted to point out that there are public spoilers, fine, but you neither show respect for the staff of psde.de who enforce the usage of the spoiler tags [rather than allowing everyone to post spoilers without that tag], neither for the devs who will deal with it. You complain about hypocrisy, but aren't you the biggest hypocrite of all of them - by making such a blame-post but saying you do like to use the feature? Think about it - and remember it next time you make a post

Quote
They don't seem to have a problem with openly posting "SPOILERS" on their forums (using the [spoiler] tags that the forum recognizes) to all the in-game quests.
Well, I had a look at the site and it really is not like you stated it. The way you put it says they have a huge list of _all_ quests and spoilers for _each_ of them, but thats not the case. The spoilers are in their help section, where people ask for quest help when they are stuck on the phrasing, game mechanics, or can't find the answer to a riddle. I have not seen a single post there which is a pure spoiler

@Nikodemus: I agree with a lot of your points, except for one. You say people join guilds for ooc reasons to get spoilers. Well, while it is trua that most (if not all guilds) have spoilers, I doubt a player will join a guild only for that. Most (if not all) guilds recruit their members by IC means and before a member joins a guild they most probably won't know the quality and quantity of the spoilers in their forums. Btw, what is the star in your post referring to?  :P

Quote
If everyone are running around with glyphs of doom, which are supposed to be very rare and unknown to most, is it looking realistic?
Glyph of doom? Oh gimme da spoiler! :D
No seriously, it's not realistic, but the problem here lays within the game mechanics, which yet reveal the same reward to every person who does the quest and in due time a lot of people will do it, with or without spoilers. A possible solution would be to change the quest system to allow random rewards and make the most rare reward have a lesser chance to be gotten than the not so rare rewards - yeah, that sounds like an idea, gonna feature request that ;)
So why do I love when I still feel pain?
When does it end, when is my work done?
Why do I fight and why do I feel that
I carry a sword, that I carry a sword through a battlefield?

VNV Nation - Joy

peeg

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Re: German PlaneShift Community and "spoilers"
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2008, 01:08:39 pm »
Disclaimer: Following post contains my personal opinion and nothing else.

I'm part of said community's staff and I'd like to clarify some things.
There are no complete walkthroughs or solutions to any quest on psde (the German community)!
When we designed psde we decided that we won't follow the strict anti-spoiler policy as you all know it from this forum.
There's a simple reason for it: Our goal was (and still is) to help players to enjoy our beloved game as much as possible.  A player who tries to solve a quest  for days and can't finish it because the NPCs won't understand whatever he tries gets frustrated. That's where the enjoyment ends. It's simples as that. Long thing put short: Yes, we allow posters to ask questions about certain quests. Nearly every time a hint into the right direction is enough to make them happy ....

Every entry that could contain the slightest spoiler has to be marked as such. Additionally we provide special tags to hide text-passages that are spoilers. Btw: Yes, we moderate the forums there and we take care that the tags and signs get used when needed.
Spoilers in the Wiki are only available for registered users. We follow the approach that every player should have his own choice when the question arises if he'd like to get some hints. If you don't like it: Fine, don't click where a huge, bold [SPOILER] shows up ...

I like to mention another thing: Every single member of psde's staff has put a huge bunch of work and time into it. I don't know how much time I spent in answering techn. questions, updating the site or translating all kind of official stuff to German. It's been fun and i don't regret a second of it. We build the largest national PS community with about 2800 registered members. If you look at PS' playerbase you'll find a lot Germans ... maybe, just maybe, our concept worked out?

I'm not much of a writer, so i'll close here. If someone feels the urge to discuss this further: I can be found on IRC.

Have a nice day  :)
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