Ruminations upon what Thorian Gronk teaches us about Hydlaa society.

[Prolix]

So, one more quest done amongst my characters and one more heinous crime laid at Gronk's feet. By my estimations he really should be banished or dead and not living it up in Kada-El's tavern. I certainly cannot say that I have learned all there is to know about his place in society but his continued open presence in town suggests he has extremely good connections within the government and a level of corruption that would likely result in a swarm of megaras flying off to the crystal if the common folk had any say in their society. Of course, it may be that the entire society is corrupt and this kind of practice is considered completely acceptable.

I do realize that the bad guys need to have a place in town for the nefariously inclined players to interact with but it would seem to me those in the open would more likely be the petty thugs, flunkies, if you will, who are never up to much and spend a good deal of time in the lockup.

What say you?

[Donari Tyndale]

I'd say the game is not finished yet.

[Prolix]

That's the way to get in the spirit! Type a few words and say nothing. Of course the game is not finished and perhaps Thorian will not remain in the tavern though he could be a little more out of the way right now, say, in a room off the sewers in back of the tavern. Still the quests indicate he frequents that tavern but I suppose they may change as well. Heck in the final game Yliakum might be in a stalagmite instead of a stalactite -- or is it vice versa.

I suppose my thoughts are not particularly edifying in this thread.

[Oomi]

I don't know about needing to move his location. History is full of thoroughly wicked men and women who have successfully dodged the law without having to hide in shadows. Many have even openly walked the halls of power. I also don't think that the presence of such evil individuals in a society necessarily gives confirmation that the society (or the government that controls it) shares the same taint as these individuals, or is too blind to see the taint. Some evildoers are just clever at dodging official notice. Some may use their corrupt compatriots who hold positions of power to shield them. There are always a few in any society, no matter how noble or orderly that society is in general.

That being said, expanding on Thorian's tale at some point would be a worthwhile endeavor. Will any additions answer ALL questions about his deeds and connections? I hope not... I like the idea of a few mysteries hanging about.

[Prolix]

Now this is the kind of discussion I was looking for. I am positive there is more to him than I have seen because I have not done much in the way of evil quests. I do think it is a little unfortunate to have him so close to the person the good guys report him to but it is better now that he is off the porch and out of direct sight.

In a way this touches on the problems associated with npcs and quests and whatnot. The quests are pretty static in that though they may change from time to time as things get updated while they exist the actors have to remain on their marks. This is not a criticism of the developers, it is inherent to the genre. Thorian cannot be punished for one person because he would not be there for the next. In order to have this make sense we need to think of some justification for it.

In a way this is an attempt to synchronize what the players can expect from the game with how the npcs get dealt with.  If we want the players to adhere to the in-game laws we need to show that the way the game deals with npc crime is a viable way for the player characters to operate. So, for instance, if doing the evil quests gives you the connections the evil npcs have to any extent then the players doing them can claim their use from time to time.

Does this line of thinking make any sense?

[Taniquetil]

Methinks Prolix just likes to stir up discussion

Really, I dont think the tavern is such a bad place for him. He isn't in plain view, or interacting with other people (besides the player), and one has to do a bit of exploring to find him. Putting him down in the sewer or out back makes him look like more of a bum or a crazy person than a cleverly evil character. As Oomi said, he would blend in if he was that great of a criminal.

As far as quests go, I cannot think of a way to punish Thorian without making it inconsistent between players.

By justification, Prolix, do you mean justification for his evil ways or for the fact that he does not get punished?

[Prolix]

I meant a reason why he manages to go unpunished. If the npcs can go around breaking the laws with impunity it will make the players thing their characters can too, and yet if the npcs cannot break the laws and cannot be punished because they have to remain available for others then the range of possibilities will be far more limited than it should be.

Perhaps in the future it would be possible to have the npcs spend some time here and then some time there once a prison map is made. It does kind of make the idea of true death questionable though unless the npcs never do anything to qualify for it in their affairs. At the moment true death is kind of theoretical anyway. It might even be possible to have an npc spend time in the Death Realm should someone finish a particular quest.

Discussion, yes, is good for the game and good for the soul.

[Taniquetil]

Well, you bring up a good point. Why do npcs never change? The world around them (in the character's perspective) is dynamic, while an npc is static. The only answer i can figure is that, well, that they are npcs. And, becuase they are npcs, and they are static, how 'evil' or 'good' or whatever else can they really be? You can say that they are evil, but no action ever proves that (other than perhaps the quests they assign to you). How can they be punished for never committing a crime?

Having npcs move is a great idea and i applaud the devs for implementing it (Harn for example). i can think of several others, as Prolix suggested, that should spend time in jail Yet, i am struggling to grasp how exactly your idea of having an npc relocate after ONE person finishes a quest. They would move for everyone, obviously. Would it be permanent? Would a reset be involved? Could you still reach that character as before? It would seem unfair to later players passing by to have the npc just pack up and move because of one person.

[Prolix]

No, it would not be permanent. It would be something along the lines of I catch Thorian and turn him over to the guard and he winds up in the prison map. Later he could have an escape quest that would return him to the main world along with one or more pcs or else he could escape on his own or do his time, get a pardon or something. Likewise if he ends up in the Death Realm he could be there for a random amount of time until he finds his way out. While he is away from Hydlaa his normal quests would be put on hold and the map appropriate ones would be active. The only times you could advance a particular quest is when he was on its appropriate map.

This would have to be done in a manner that was as non-disruptive as possible, he could not be left hanging for weeks at a time. Also if there were players waiting on him in another map there might need to be a chance of him going there without player participation -- get caught by the guard, for example. Perhaps the chance would be regulated by the number of people waiting (with his quests open.)

[Rizin]

Well, you bring up a good point. Why do npcs never change? The world around them (in the character's perspective) is dynamic, while an npc is static. The only answer i can figure is that, well, that they are npcs. And, becuase they are npcs, and they are static, how 'evil' or 'good' or whatever else can they really be? You can say that they are evil, but no action ever proves that (other than perhaps the quests they assign to you). How can they be punished for never committing a crime?

We are still writing/creating the foundation of the game, of course we're not going to do away with a NPC at a whim. Remember the game is in development not a finished product - this includes the story as much as it does the art and engine. There will be gaps in things until we are finished connecting all the dots. Once we reach that point....we can address more dynamic issues.

Having npcs move is a great idea and i applaud the devs for implementing it (Harn for example). i can think of several others, as Prolix suggested, that should spend time in jail Yet, i am struggling to grasp how exactly your idea of having an npc relocate after ONE person finishes a quest. They would move for everyone, obviously. Would it be permanent? Would a reset be involved? Could you still reach that character as before? It would seem unfair to later players passing by to have the npc just pack up and move because of one person.

NPC personalities and abilities are growing - give it all time. New things will emerge and old things will be updated to reflect new abilities.

I meant a reason why he manages to go unpunished. If the npcs can go around breaking the laws with impunity it will make the players thing their characters can too, and yet if the npcs cannot break the laws and cannot be punished because they have to remain available for others then the range of possibilities will be far more limited than it should be.

Perhaps in the future it would be possible to have the npcs spend some time here and then some time there once a prison map is made. It does kind of make the idea of true death questionable though unless the npcs never do anything to qualify for it in their affairs. At the moment true death is kind of theoretical anyway. It might even be possible to have an npc spend time in the Death Realm should someone finish a particular quest.

Discussion, yes, is good for the game and good for the soul.

Discussion is good for the soul...yes. BUT make sure your discussion is on point. Right now the NPC's stories are unfinished and are continuing to grow - analyzing it now makes no sense as all the facts aren't in play and you are conjecturing what you do not know.

Edited to fix typo.

[Taniquetil]

I understand that not everything is written yet and there is much room for modifications. And I'm not going to make a complaint about what the devs should/should not be doing. I wasn't reallycomplaining as much as we were judt discussing the possibilities for npcs in the future. I hope my posts arent taken the wrong way.

Here, ill even put in a smiley

[Candy]

The more affluent NPC's could be charged fines and/or have gotten out on bail. Another option would be to have them do community service.

Or perhaps there is a corrupt Vigesemi or two that help criminals hiding somewhere for now that will reveal him- her- or kraself in a later release...

[Rizin]

I understand that not everything is written yet and there is much room for modifications. And I'm not going to make a complaint about what the devs should/should not be doing. I wasn't reallycomplaining as much as we were judt discussing the possibilities for npcs in the future. I hope my posts arent taken the wrong way.

Here, ill even put in a smiley

Not upset in the slightest. Just wanted to make sure everyone remembers we're still plotting. 

*Rizin laughs evilly and disappears.

[Prolix]

I am not so sure that it is premature to analyze it in its admittedly adolescent state. Those of us who are not on the team are not privy to your discussions and while there is likely to be a good deal of overlap between our suggestions and your plans we occasionally hit on new good ideas that you can run with. Would you have preferred I had prepended "Preliminary" to the thread title? Is it improper for players to speculate about the future? At the very least a thread like this can give you insight into how your efforts are being viewed and possibly give you ideas on what to clarify in the future. This thread is definitely not intended for brickbats or bouquets. It is more "what I can infer about the future." Sorry if it seemed like anything else.

I just did my taxes and could not turn off my brain.....

Ahh the intervening post you fiend!

[Under the moon]

In the future, NPCs will do quests for you.

In all fairness, the only way to have fully reactive NPCs would be to have someone writing for each of them full time, enact single time quests, and make the NPCs act exactly like players. There is not a single MMO that can do that right now. The effort it takes to write, edit, and test a single complex quest is extreme.

The lessons Thorian teaches you are not about Hydlaa society any more than Rolara's are. You have to take them as single quests, and assume the vindication or come-up-ins will happen. The lessons are about the limitations of the game, not the behavior of the people.