Roleplaying Focus

[Tuxide]

...combined with disappointment in unimplemented features. The tendency of players to drop out to look for other games to try and settle into, becomes the added watershed that holds the online numbers down.

Well, obviously that can't be helped :-) I remember back when I first played this game in Fall 2002, and even I didn't play it seriously.  I think I was into Morrowind or Tribes 2 or text MUDs or something, and I treated PlaneShift as the kind of game to check out every few months just to see how it was going.

[trying to remain on-topic] Heck, I didn't even start to roleplay my character until uhh I don't remember, summer 2005 or summer 2006 or so.  The very first time I actually tried this crap you guys call "RP" was in the arena; I decided to RP my main character Tuxide as a jerk, so I went down into the gladiator hall and stole someone else's spawn (while being rules-compliant, because spawns cannot be "owned").  And then some GM who was watching me told me (on the fan-channel) that if I was trying to RP a bully, I shouldn't say "PP" while in-character xD

[Mrokii]

hehe, first of all: Sorry, I took the wrong button I clicked on "no", while I meant "the community should try to be more welcoming".

I guess most of what I can write has already been said in one form or the other, so I try to be as short as possible (including possible solutions, why it is probably longer than it should be ... ):

1. Newbies
Problem: They are "scared off" because they are confused. The first impression is a big world with lots of people running around, and most of these people are doing a certain business and therefore ignore everyone around.

Solution: Find a way to "mark" people according to their condition. Three or four would be enough. Examples: Every newbie has a certain symbol floating over his/her head, so they are easily recognizable. This way, older players would have a hint who might need help. And the other way round: have a symbol for people that are willing to answer questions and for others who don't want to be disturbed right now, either because they are roleplaying with friends or are doing business.

What it solves: It helps people who are in help find people who would like to help and vice versa. And people who don't want to be bothered right now are not disturbed. Easy enough to learn for everyone, I think.

2. Old Players
Problem: Their roleplaying doesn't make an impact. What I mean with this: All that can be done is done between players but when those players are gone, nothing is left.

Solution: I think what this game desperately needs is a way to "leave a trace" of yourself so to say. Examples: Make it easy for people/merchants (affordable) to buy small shops (which can be rented for a certain amount of time). Let them decorate those shops with own graphics, like banners in real world (according to RPing of course, but think about a weapon-merchant having a banner over his market-stand saying something like "...'s finest weapons - all being made by the most talented crafters" or something like that).
What I mean with this: Players interaction need to have a "visible" impact on planeshift, something that stays, even if they are not around. Otherwise old players *will* become bored over time. The impact can be a small hut, somebody owns or a shop (which is closed but still there when the player is not around. Or a non-material change (to the players advantage or disadvantage). Religion is a good example: Why are non-believers allowed to visit even the most important rooms in a temple? Or why are people who play a bad character (thieves and such) are treated by all NPCs just the same as the most kind players? This could even be extended with the "symbols" I mentioned for problem one: Invent symbols for "shady" characters and for those that are generally acting nice or helpful.

What it solves: If this world and its inhabitants reacts differently according to players behaviour, the game will be a lot more interesting.

[Kaityra]

Honestly, do you believe that PlaneShift's focus on Role-playing is costing it players?

I don't think that the emphasis on roleplaying in particular is the reason for loosing many players, maybe just the opposite, as it sets Planeshift apart from other MMORPGs out there. And I think that is the main reason for Planeshift having a small but very loyal player base.
No, I think the slow progress of the development is the main reason for loosing many players. But I guess with the limited resources that cannot be changed. On the other hand, just like other already mentioned, the players that leave may probably be not that much into roleplaying, so the question is, if the game really looses something.

Just my two cents.
Kaityra

[Irgendwer]

It's not the focus on roleplaying, that costs players, but the way it is 
done. New players quickly get the impression, that it's kind of a religion
around here (holy and fuzzy in defintion). With religion there comes zeal 
and RP zealots have to much rear cover with the game contstantly reminding
you about the importance of roleplay in the loading screens and the RP drill
in the tutorial (don't know, if it is still the same as when I played it).

New players have other priorities then roleplaying. Namely getting familiar
with the mechanics and the setting. They will have questions about both and
the way they are answered are likely to affect the decission, whether or not
they will continue to play the game.
Unfortunatly, you cannot simply ask these things in the natural way, without
triggering someones [ooc] sensor and getting policed about how the mainchat
is to be used.

IMHO, a lot of good could be done, revising the /tip messages (would be easy
to do, too). Some things that would spring to mind would be:

"While this is a roleplay server, there is no globally agreed concensus on
how to roleplay. Policing other people is frowned about."

"Asking questions about gamemechanics in mainchat is not strictly considered
[ooc]. Your character knows about skillevels, but would probably refer to them
as training lessons."

"RP Tip: If someone tries to talk about reallife topics, simply pretend that
you don't understand and ask him/her to explain."             

"RP Tip: If someone does not roleplay, try to give him or her a positive
example rather then telling him/her, what s/he is doing wrong in your eyes."

"The point of using [brackets] is to emphasize, something being OOC in a 
roleplay conversation. You are not required to use them, if the OOC nature
is obvious anyway."

[Prolix]

* Prolix track announcer:

And at the corner we have "more welcoming" by a nose over "no cost" followed closely by "to hell with you" then by "definitive price" with "snorks" trailing badly. It's a nail biter folks.

I think it is kind of sad the number of people choosing "the hell" because it is a pretty elitist point of view. It is not too far from "does not role play" to "does not role play to my standards" and the two are easily mistaken for each other. It is all very well to promote and prefer role playing but the world will get pretty lonely as it grows if the population doesn't also grow. What would be the point of building the rest of the maps if the player base can't even fill Hydlaa?

Anyway, I think this poll is intended as a wake up call to the forum denizens to think more and react less. The choices seem loaded with emotional baggage and are not neutrally expressed.

Perhaps I read too much into things.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Prolix it would be correct to say that almost half of the options have some sort of emotional baggage attached, but it is hard to say that about "Yes." or "No."

There is both a wake up call and an earnest wish for information on my part. I have some thoughts to add when we reach 100 votes.

[Mythryndel]

Prollix... you are not alone in your interpretation of things. It sincerely bothers me when there are so many comments about either not needing new players, or we won't miss them if they can't conform, or whatever. I have not really experienced this in-game, but encounter it daily on the forums.

Tuxide... I don't recall the url to the thread. If i find it I will PM it to you.

[DracoDanube]

'Honestly, do you believe that PlaneShift's focus on Role-playing is costing it players?'

Answer: No because people manage to play the game without Role Playing.


There are three main hooks to PlaneShift, why people play
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
a. The ability to 'mine' accumulate wealth, possessions, skill and then playfully posture to show off and talk about their achievements.

b. Multi-player, team play. Meet people on-line, meet friends on-line.

c. The environment. The PlaneShift world is attractive to move around in and listen to.

We unavoidably Role Play to some degree when we do any of these things.


Role Play
---------------
It's taken seriously, in varying degrees.

A day or two ago someone typed (in square brackets), that they would like to have ago at role playing but didn't know how.

New players are afraid that the Role Play Police will chastise them if they don't do it properly.

Role Playing is improvised and loosely, very loosely, based on a story thread which may have been improvised right there and then. Role Playing is literally making it up as you go along. Role Playing should not be tainted by Role Play Gestapo who insist on pedantic-to-the-letter accurate dialogue.

Improvisation can actually become hilarious. Having clean fun is what PlaneShift is all about.


Role Play Gestapo
----------------------------
Role Playing is not the problem, the pedantic-to-the-letter Role Play Gestapo are.

Coincidentally(!) as I was typing this message, with PS running in another window, someone sent me a /tell and and told me that they considered themselves a 'Strict Role Player'. They wanted to know why I had done something that violated their story line... a few days ago!

My reply was/is: As polite as possible :: Mind your own business! I mean that most sincerely folks. Mind your OWN business, Mr StrictRolePlayer!

:-) 

There AREN'T any no-go-areas in PlaneShift. If you consider yourself a strict Role Player then you will have no problem improvising around the unexpected.

My Role Playing activities are fun, not drop-dead-serious and my description certainly highlites that.

It's just bolox to impose pedantic-to-the-letter Role Play rules on people (within reason of course).

Using the communication tabs, there are enough ways to limit interference from non-strict-role-players if they are interrupting your play.

However, I for one would be disappointed if Role Players started to use the Group tab to talk among themselves. I enjoy evesdropping on them and occasionally trying to get involved.

Role Playing IS fun but stops being fun when the Role Play Gestapo get involved.

[Kaityra]

It sincerely bothers me when there are so many comments about either not needing new players, or we won't miss them if they can't conform, or whatever.

I have tested some other MMO(RP)Gs out there. In most of them roleplay was nearly none existent. And you really know how hard it is to roleplay if you seem to be the only one interested in it. I mean there are plenty MMO(RP)Gs out there for those not interested in roleplaying. Why not have one or two MMORPGs for those with a stronger interest in roleplaying without others, who are not interested in this type of game, destroying the atmosphere of the game? Maybe that explains why some players (including me) say that Planeshift does not "need" the "wrong" kind of players. Please note the quotation marks in the last sentence before putting a sling around my neck.

[Prolix]

I do wish people would stop using Nazi terminology. It completely demeans the discussion and makes the people using it look ignorant. If you do not like the terms I created -- Roplard and Poleard, for role players and powerlevelers respectively -- use something else. I really hate having my side of the argument marginalized because some people have no sense of proportion.

[Mythryndel]

The problem being the terms fit. The manner of enforcement, the attitude, the whole package fits. I can't help the connotation that goes along with those terms, that was defined long before I was around. There is a band of people, largely on the forums (and possibly in the tavern) that behaves in this manner. I don't know if they are all part of the same group, or just happen to have the same way of talking down to everyone that isn't RPing the way they are, but they are here, and they are very active on the forums, and it is simpler to use a single word that people have some concept of rather than having to invent and define new ones.

What I find interesting about a lot of this... is that the people that are the most vocal about calling people out are not the devs... are not the settings team... but players that think they own the place. What gives?

[kougaro]

Voted no, because i think it's not because of  RP that PS does not have a huge player base :

_ the game is still in alpha/beta/whatever, and while it's a very appealing game because of the RP plus all that's specific to PS (i love the music, the quests, and many more), it still lacks features, objects, more maps, and still have too many bugs, to draw a lot of players.

_ Not just because of the RP, but the way PS is (real interaction with npcs (not just to be clicked and i get a quest of bringing him back 100 rat skins), quests that are really well-thought and interesting (most of the time  ), the great people and RP, and more that i forgot for now), it is not a game that it's simple to get into. Thus the small player base.

I think Xillix's comment about PS being a niche game is right : while PS could draw more people's attention in the future, with more features and less bugs, i don't think it will ever get a very large player base, at least not in the near future. Lots of MMO players are just stupid teenagers whose (thanks Prolix ) preferred comment is "60k dmg, pawned you, lawl". I hope i never see such people here.

[Taniquetil]

as I said I really hate this forum

Why are you still here?

The problem being the terms fit.

The terms do not fit. This forum is not a group of "RP Nazis". Whatever you may think, RP is encouraged. Look at the great RPs that have started up in the past couple months: The Market, The Games, HoG, just to name a few. I know this has been said before but apparently it takes a few hundred times for it to get pounded into your skull: there is no discouraging of RP here unless it completely disagrees with the settings. Yes, i can hear it now, "But the settings are wrong!". Yes? What decides what is wrong? What decides what makes sense and what is inconsistent? Just for example, the sky could be friggin tie-dye and i would accept the simple explanation of "Thats just how this game is." The rules and laws in this game DO NOT have to be plausible or consistent with the rules and laws of the world we live in.

Just go with it.

[StitchedChin]

Shoot, I'd check all of these buttons off, but if you are asking if role playing is costing PS the "most" players, then no way, if anything it probably keeps more players than it loses.

This is how the game is advertised:

http://www.planeshift.it/about.html

So this is why you should assume that most players are trying PS out.  Now given this type of advertising, it should be fairly easy to look at all the stats, all the downloads of the clients, the installs and registrations, the length of stay in game, average activity, etc. and you can figure out most player's patterns.

I think just by the concentration of players at the pt mine and the arena, shows you there is not enough depth to the game to appease a bigger base, yet.  I concentrated on the quests for the first few weeks, but that got old and tiresome, so I decided to try this role playing thing everyone was arguing about.  I joined a guild, chatted with some regulars around the area and the game actually improved for me and now I plan on sticking around for much longer.  I hear more complaints about game mechanics/dynamics (lag, impervious monsters, etc.) and that affects role playing more than anti-role players, in my opinion.  And I think it is a given that everyone should be more welcoming, not sure when "the community should be less welcoming" would ever be an option?  I don't think that means you go around welcoming everyone, I think that means more role playing.  You don't have to be nice, just be your character.  That is the best way for people to learn, to see how it is done, and if they stumble, then help them out.  If someone walks around for a week and never gets greeted or acknowledged, then I can pretty much guarantee they won't be there for much longer.  That is if they are in the game because they read the "About" page...

[Mythryndel]

I'm not talking so much about RP in-game, although the fact that people are critiqued in-game by "strict" role players is yet another example of what I am talking about. I am talking primarily about the forums. If people dare to say something that doesn't fit with the view held by those I have referred to in this "derogatory" way, they swarm them, flame broil them, and all but tell them that they can take their opinions with them and don't let the door hit them on the way out. This is not only rude, but completely uncalled for. People take the time to comment that they could either be using to play or do any number of other things. There are occasions where they are simply complaining, but usually it is an attempt to improve areas of the "in development" game.

[Edit} Quoted from the About link above "We decided to open it to the public because we want to have your feedback on improving the game". This means that the DEVS want feedback, even if a handful of posters on the forums don't. This tells me that those responsible for coding the game do desire feedback, and are or will be miffed if they see people being chased off because of incredibly negative feedback on the forums.

[Edit 2] RP is "encouraged"... A lot of the posts I am referring to would only be seen as "encouragement" if you believe that 6 big guys jumping you in a dark alley and telling you they don't like your shoes and NEVER to wear them again, is seen as encouraging people to dress better.

Just out of curiosity, how exactly is it that the "strict" roleplayers are supposed to get Q300 weapons and such if there aren't people in-game that are taking the time to make them? NPCs can't sell anything higher than Q50 (by game design) to encourage players to craft items. Why is it that so many people get upset when players choose to explore the game mechanics instead of sitting around the tavern BSing all day?