Economy Poll

[LigH]

Ah, so you want to get rid of players...

[Zwenze]

I just quick read this thread. I read every post, but maybe jumped some paragraphs. I am sure that some points are already mentioned, please forgive. Another problem i have is that i dont know what parameters of the economy are there that are changeable without coding. If I violate the "no-code-change-rule", please forgive. I try to keep the proposed changes small. But first some toughts at the situation.

First:
Again there is a discussion about PLers vs RPers. To be honest, the economy offers a system where you are rewarded for doing several things in a different grade. Thats similar to real live. PLers try to find the easiest method to gain largest amounts of tria as fast as possible. People do this in real life all the day. I see nothing bad with it. If you lower platinum to fix that, then the PLers will switch to another activity and mine gold for example. To aviod that PLers cluster on a certin activity, you must switch off all sources of income. Bad idea imho. Oh, and by the way, I never have seen someone in real live insisting to get a lower paid job in a capital because the live should be in a capital. So from a certain point of view the PLers make a realistic roleplay. I don't think that lowering the platinum will make people better role players. Heck, there isn't even an agreement on what a good roleplayer is. Enforcing roleplay through the economy seems like a bad idea to me.

Second:
As I have read the thread I got the impression that there are many ideas how the economy should work. Some think of it as a way to enforce roleplay, others want to get tria fast to be able to powerlevel. Maybe a discussion about the goals, what the adjustment to the economy should trigger is necessary? I think a goal should be to offer a way to earn tria that is entertaining. After all this is a game and games are supposed to be entertaining.

Third:
In this thread i heard opinions that the platinum triggers an inflation. At the same time many crafters complain in game about an deflation. I can remember that the prices for crafted weapons once where really high and now they are much lower. I don't see any inflation. When many people concentrated on crafting, many crafters where around and today the weapon market is saturated. If for example, you would implement armor making and sell those to other players for a high price that will work out for some time. But many players will become an armor crafter and we would get a similar situation as with the swords today. I think the problem here is that weapons wear of far to slowly.

The REAL  problem:
There are many different kind of players with different opinions about how the economy should work. Well, I think there is no solution to that problem, as even there is no common point of view what the problem actually is.

There is an deflation, it is to easy, it is to hard, hyldaa is too deserted, the mine is to crowded, there are to less roleplayers, there is an inflation, too many tria in game, its too hard to earn tria. Thats my impression what is seen as problems. Different player, different opinions. How to fix that?

Maybe the question should be if its too boring or "too entertaining"? I think the economy can't be easily fixed but it can be made more entertaining. Only mining is a bit monotonic. In earlier times people digged gold ores at the mage shop and sold that to Harnquist. Then the possibility to smelt the gold and sell ingots and stocks was added. That was one change that i liked as that made the players interact a bit more. But this "chain" stops at ingots or stocks because higher refined goods are less valuable.
So far we have chains of goods like: XYZ ore -> XYZ ingot/stock.
What I dislike at the current economy:
There are certain goods that bring less tria then the resources put into it. If you craft a golden shield you put in resources with a value of at least 18k into it. And you receive an item beeing worth less then 8k. Thats just one example but I think there are more items whose value is lower then the value of all resources used to make this item.

Now lets imagine what would happen if the price for a gold shield would be insane high. Maybe 25k? Shield crafters would craft shields to make tria. Soon they would run out of steel and gold and pay more for those resources then the npcs do. In the long run some people would switch from mining to crafting of shields and there would be less miners. And the miners would be more diversified as there is need for iron, steel and coal. I would consider this an improvement.

Suggestion for a short term improvement:
Adjust the npc prices for items in a way that its more rewarding to make more advanced items. Make it for players less intresting to sell stocks and ingots. Make it interesting to sell swords, axes, shields and other higher developed items. IMHO the problem is that the lower developed items like stocks are the most rewarding. This prevents any economy to develop.

And for the sake of the crafters, make things to wear out faster. For example if someone buys a pair of quality 300 short swords today, he has great weapons for many many hours of in game time. Maybe half a year of ooc time even if he plays a lot. As a raw guess is just state that each month less then 50 pairs of weapons wear out. Thats to less IMHO.

Suggestion in the long run (surely need code change and more art):
Make it possible to craft advanced items and make it rewarding. People will try to get tria as fast as possible and if that means they have to work together to make a long chain of production steps this might actually happen. Bring other resources like wood in game and make the things that are craftable so large in number that a single player never can make it all and never can get the overview and never can max out in all professions. Shield making, Axe making, Armor making, Tool making, Food making (aka cooking), potion making(aka alchemy), Brewing, bakery, butchers, tanners and so on. At lower levels they can only produce low paid goods, at higher levels they can make more interesting goods.

Thats just an raw idea, but imho planeshifts direction of the economy should head there. I could bable around here for more changes but I will stop now. But I think there is some potential with the given code and art by just making higher developed items more valuable.

[Duraza]

Okay, I totally didn't read the whole thread, just going to post what I said and why 

I said reduce the cost of training. The reason why is that I think the reason people get money the most is to train. You start off doing that when your a newbie. Mine, loot, sell. People do it because current training as you get higher and higher cost loads of money. A newer player shouldn't be expected to have so much cash. Older players shouldn't have to get as much cash as they do in order to train.

Lowering costs will slowly lower the amount of money people try to gain and stock up on. If we all start carrying less because we don't have to worry so much about prices then things will slowly settle down. One could say it is pretty easy to get money so we shouldn't complain about training prices but you can also say that because prices are so high and people need lots of money there is no doubt they will spend their time getting loads of it as quickly as possible. However, if lets say I no longer need as much money to train my character I may start selling anything from the ore I mine to the weapons I loot/craft cheaper. There won't be as great a demand of cash as there once was so getting a huge supply wouldn't be necessary.

The REAL  problem:
There are many different kind of players with different opinions about how the economy should work. Well, I think there is no solution to that problem, as even there is no common point of view what the problem actually is.

I think I also agree with Zwenze on this point. Whats up there is my opinion of the problem. However I think everyone does have a different view, all depending on what this all means to you and what role it plays in the game for you as a player and a character. So while my idea may fix what I think is the problem someone else may still have their own problems.

[Arerano]

That's all well and good, but consider that people do need to eat, so therefor every person should really be able to cook, even warriors and miners.  And really, how hard is it to dig?  Since it's just a matter of finding the right spot.  Those don't really seem like very challenging skills to believe that any person couldn't learn them all.  I'm an engineer/programmer, but I can also woodwork, play guitar/piano, play sports competitively, and dabble in all sorts of other tradeskill type projects in real life.  Would I take them all to master level?  No, but it's not unrealistic to think a warrior might be able to do a few things other than fight.  Now, a warrior/sorcerer, that may be asking a bit much.

I agree partly. Of course people do a lot of different things in real life including me. Lets stick a bit at the "real life samples". I doubt that many people craft their own screwdrivers. When people are busy working all day, I am sure that they won't "bake a bread", probably "won't cook at all" during their lunch break. Those who use a "car" will of course be able to repair this or that.. some can do more, others less, yet it's not likely that they'll build their car and many surely have to bring the car to some garage to get more difficult thnigs repaired, to buy replacement parts, etc.
So buying an apple or even some meal when taking a break from mining would actually be quite realistic. ..of course, those who aren't really into RP will most likely not do it unless, well, unless they have some benefit from it. (eg refreshes a bit of their stamina which could be done without code change).

I see no problem with platinum ore. If grindminers want to waste days and days of their lives mining platinum on a video game that is meant for RP...let them waste away!

Thanks. It's an encouraging comment.

I said reduce the cost of training. The reason why is that I think the reason people get money the most is to train.

I wonder, if they get the Trias for training, how comes that one of the last guild houses was sold for 12 Million Tria? I think that those are the reason why some don't seem to stop mining at all.. probably not even for training anythig (but mining). Maybe finind other ways to obtain them will better the situation. I don't say that "obtaining them" should be as easy as snipping one's fingers.. indeed not.


What's the point of it all? Sure, everyone has their own oppinion, their own affectations. Some tend to rather "use mechanics" all day long, others tend to "roleplay" all day long.. no, not exactly. It's not black and white and most are somewhere in between. If one has fun trying out everything possible, yes - please do it and I really wish them that they have fun doing it. Those who prefer not to use any mechanics at all but rather like to use PlaneShift as a "3D chatroom".. of course, they should have their fun also. People are free to decide with whom to play.. and some prefer to play "alone".

..hmm, was about to unfold the point here. Maybe later

[Nemolix]

It is time that I speak here too.
First,
Sorry for the bad English.

It’s not the Platinum.
And not the cost for training.

With the Platum Mine everybody can pay the Trainer.
It is the Practical training…
And the very low Monsters…
Why the Economy don’t work.

Economy in PS:
To make something, sell it for a good price.
Or kill Something to get the Animal Parts to sell.

For the Miner this works.
There pay a trainer. and must only dig a Ore to get 1,000Trias.
The other Training in Mining is only to be a bit faster… And not important for the Players

The Other Jobs but don’t works.
for example:
A Smith must pay a trainer…
buy or dig ore/steel …
Work a long time to make a sword… (with low Quality)
He can’t sell it to a Player. Must sell it for “nothing” to a NPC
Get a bit Practical Point…
To sell it to Player the Quality must be better. That call the Player must make more of bad swords for NPC’s, Pay for the Steel, Lost much time for the Practical Training. And get “no” Trias.

With more practical Points for a Work… He can make after a short time good Sword… Maybe sell it to a player. 

But It don’t works… If the Monsters are the most time down… Or are to low for the Players.
You Set high Stats and Skill but… don’t balance the Monster
(It can’t be that in the Descrition of a Ulber you can Read “No Armor can save you” and I see noob killing there)
or the Practical work/ the Practical Training.…

I know a lot of player there Train 3-and more Months to be a good Smith… And There Can’t sell the Weapons in the Rich Yliakum.

If the Poll is that you know which way you have go in Yliakum I have 3 Points.

Make The NPC server a bit solid.
Balance the Monster to the high Levels of the Player.
More Practical Points for a Work.

[Zan]

I have several suggestions, Move mines as far as possible from civilization, surround them with loads of nasties that cant be lured, make them run out rapidly and move to a new spot so they have to be located again (say once a week).

Seconded!

The more precious the resource, the harder it should be to find it.

[Adder]

Iron stock is far to cheap when sold to Trasok. Between players one can get 50 for standard. Coal is super cheap.

Make other materials worth more so that they are an alternative to mining platinum!

Also consider turning on collision detection between players at the mine to make feel the players when  it is too crowded.
Of course, I guess you could gang up on a player then, but hey, it makes mining more dangerous.

[tux_johny]

Hello PlaneShift Community!
I am no nativ speaker, but I try to get my statement as clear as possible.
The problem is a systemical problem: We have inflation in Hylda, because there is more income of Trias than output. You can clearly watch this inflation on the auctions for guild houses and how the prices went up (is it 100 % or 1000 % inflation?).
All suggestions I read are merely a cosmetic treatment or a personal flavor, but no solution to the problem.
I have voted "other" and here is my idea, even it needs work on the code:
Hold up or keep up cost.
As example: 0.1 % Trias per every real time hour beeing online from every characters Trias. For guild houses perhaps even more.
That will not need much code and can be redifined easily for increasing or decreasing. See it as tax or payment for food or for clothes, if you want. But it would solve the problem of inflation and that would be good for the economy.
ps.: with inflation I mean money is getting less worth. Is that correct spoken?

Yours

tux_johny

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Collision detection on players: No.

Players will do thinks like take over a mine or the arena.

Keep Moving the mine: No.

Too labor intensive for too little reward atm.

[Illysia]

I think that the problem lies with the player and not the game mechanics at the moment and Zwene's post (I actually read it. 99 % at least  ) made me even more sure of this.

In real life there are a limits to how much you can make or not make. These limits don't exist in PS since your characters isn't forced to sleep every night or take lunch breaks. Therefore, it is up to the player to limit themselves. For instance, when book first came out, my character wrote a book and priced it at 150 tria a book. Compared to how easily tria can be gotten this was nothing but a few coins hardly missed. But keeping in mind settings, this was a lot of money. You could buy several meals for what the 1 book cost. The only thing justifying the book being 3 times the cost of materials used is that paper and books in particular were fairly precious and so would be rather expensive.

Another example, there was a ball and my character needed a dress. There was a dress she had her eye one, but it was fancy and therefore expensive. She simply couldn't afford it. Does that mean that I didn't have the tria or couldn't get it? No. I had it but in keeping with her level of wealth (rpwise) she wouldn't be able to afford it.

If you want to deal with the problem from the standpoint of game mechanics, then  you need to diversify the economy. Like Zwene said, the market is saturated. It is only saturated because there are so many things players can contribute back to the economy. This is a long term fix and will happen. "soon(tm)"

In this regard though, players can still take responsibility for it to a certain extent. I have several characters, but only one crafts and she doesn't make weapons. If you can, hold off on crafting for profit or selling in bulk until the economy is more diverse and people can chose other professions and desaturated the market. Everybody selling the same thing isn't going to help anybody make money and in the long run you aren't going to lose as much money by RPing or hunting as you will loading up on weapons to sell with few buyers that will pay your price. By all means, craft some since weapons are still needed, but limit yourself. Go have a drink every so often.

Also, I think lowering the cost of training would help. I just spent 6000 tria on training a level. That means I had to leave the tavern to go hunt, not for ingredients, just to make a level which seems out of place to me which is why I just stopped and only RPed for a while after that.  Imagine you were in school and you had to pay 6000 for each segment of the lesson plan. What is the likely hood you would keep taking that class? I'm sorry but with the money I am paying Reffitia, Brado should be able to fix those broken doors and completely remodel the whole tavern! 

[Hrothbert]

Well here I go only having read the first few posts and the last few. I voted to leave it.

Reason being is that yes there was a little bit of inflation for guildhouse, not houses, THe last two went fo 4 million tria and 1.6 million tria respectively, The first was the only one that hit 12 million and go firgure it's the one closest to the Platinum mine.

But the case of too much tria in game isn't really an issue because to train you take that tria out of circulation. I know of a Kran the has spent more than 3 million tria on himself alone. Thats a lot but he enjoys the game and wants to experience it all with one character. Second to lower the cost of training would mostly bring values of the skills down, as was said in an earlier post many of the dedicated miners are there to power level. Lower the price and everyone will be the 'strongest' quickly. Currently the time it takes I think is good because it allows new players to 'mature' in the game, as well as it tends to create a sort of filtering for the players that may be more detrimental to the community than good.

[Illysia]

Lower the price and everyone will be the 'strongest' quickly.

People who are truly determined to PL are going to be the strongest the fastest no matter what game mechanics are in place. That's why I say it is up to the player to self regulate.

[Vannaka]

I believe this point has been raised a couple of times already, but it has mostly been a small point in a larger solution.  The fact that weapons do not wear out is a major problem.  With weapons that last indefinately the demand for weapons is constantly decreasing.  With less demand comes more competition between crafters and so lower prices for crafted weapons.  Since these weapons never wear out the crafters are having a hard time making money to support their craft, and so with less money they are forced to mine platinum so they can afford more steel to make more weapons.  solution: (and yes i know it would take time and coding changes, but i think it's still the best solution) Make all weapons degradable, and i don't mean allow them to be damaged, because that already happens, but i mean upon repairing a weapon its max quality should always decrease.  If every time a weapon was repaired its max quality lowered by 1 or even just a fraction, then new weapons would be needed and the crafters would be able to make some money without constantly mining platinum.  Also when fighting with a weapon at 90% or less of its max quality there should be a chance that the weapon breaks upon striking.

Just my opinion, feel free to criticize or add to my idea, i didn't spend much time organizing my thoughts, kinda a spur of the moment post

[Prolix]

I would suggest that weapons be down graded by one point each repair and the percentage chance it breaks be based on how far from its current max quality. Thus a 99/100 weapon has  1% chance of breaking per strike and a 25/50 weapon has 50%. The effect of an actual break is to immediately reduce the max quality to the average of current max and current quality round down so that the first weapon would barely be hurt at 98/99 and the second one would be 24/37. Note that the break includes an additional point of damage.

I do not think much of smiths that will dig platinum but not smelt their own steel. Sure they can demand and buy top quality steel but by not being an expert in smelting there should be a chance that that q300 steel they bought turns out to have a major flaw that either reduces the actual quality or the quantity when they go to actually use it. The other thing is if you smelt enough steel you will eventually be able to smelt more precious metals and not have to share your profit.

[Mythryndel]

Prollix... Even Harnquist tells you when he starts to teach you crafting to find a good source of ore so that you don't end up mining all day. (i'm paraphrasing). This is part of the economy. People buy ore instead of mining it. People buy fast food instead of cooking it for themselves. This is the way things work.

People are lazy by nature. This goes double for a game set in a virtual world that is not supposed to be as monotonous as real life. If they can spend the same amount of time mining and A) Make their weapon and hope to find a buyer to break even or B) Make a profit from plat, buy the ore necessary to make the weapon, and still have some tria left over for training. I know that I would choose B every day of the week. And you don't hear the person selling them the iron and coal complaining.