Author Topic: Approved guilds?  (Read 9355 times)

theirah

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Re: Approved guilds?
« Reply #135 on: July 22, 2008, 01:28:57 pm »
What if your character likes to learn? anything, everything, etc? though some branches more than others.

Parallo

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Re: Approved guilds?
« Reply #136 on: July 22, 2008, 02:01:44 pm »
My character likes to learn as much as he can. That is why he spends a good deal of time in the library.
I suggest the statue of Laanx gets turned into a statue of Parallo <3. An NPC could never replace the huge hole he left in my heart when he died  :'(

Mythryndel

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Re: Approved guilds?
« Reply #137 on: July 22, 2008, 03:33:17 pm »
I am not making a strawman. I have read those exact words from this forum many times. I was paraphrasing at least one of the arguments of someone who posted recently to this topic even. I do not mean to imply that ALL RPers are that way, but there are many of them that are very vocal on these forums.

But, as I said already... I would like to be able to have players affect the game world, I just don't think the proposed "Approved Guilds" concept is the right way to go about it.

eldoth_terevan

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Re: Approved guilds?
« Reply #138 on: July 22, 2008, 03:47:01 pm »
Around these forums, I think of the concept more like a red herring. Maybe we could call this the "burning a straw man to cook a red herring" argument. Either way, its done.

Parallo

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Re: Approved guilds?
« Reply #139 on: July 22, 2008, 04:46:31 pm »
I was reffering to the notion that mining should be banned. That is the most absurd thing I have heard yet around here and I have heard some pretty absurd things.
I suggest the statue of Laanx gets turned into a statue of Parallo <3. An NPC could never replace the huge hole he left in my heart when he died  :'(

Mythryndel

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Re: Approved guilds?
« Reply #140 on: July 23, 2008, 12:54:25 am »
Sorry, but it wasn't that much of a stretch from the criticism i have read concerning the plat mine. If it isn't the plat mine, then it would be the gold mine they would complain about because people would be "grinding" there instead. If the Gold mine was removed, like the plat mine was at one time before, it would become the silver mine that people use to "grind" their characters and forsake the most holy RP. Can this detour die yet and get back on topic or does someone else have to have the last word?

Donari Tyndale

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Re: Approved guilds?
« Reply #141 on: July 23, 2008, 06:01:56 am »
Everyone who says mining should be banned lacks creativity. There are ways to implement a mining system that promotes roleplay. And you should think about these systems and discuss them, not go around ranting about how bad everything is. Find solutions, and don't whine all the time.

Sangwa

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Re: Approved guilds?
« Reply #142 on: July 23, 2008, 07:22:06 am »
Roleplay shouldn't be rewarded. It should be the source of fun. If people don't roleplay it's because it's not fun. That simple. How can we make roleplaying more fun? We get everyone into it, then we go about making it better. Currently we still distinguish, in a Role Play Game, from Player and Role Player. That distinction is ridiculous and disruptive. Hence why I think all guilds should be approved.

I think it's a great idea to have guilds that are supported by the settings. However, there should only be a limited amount of these and only in situations where the Settings team feel its utterly required to have a grip on what goes on. PlaneShift already leans heavily on NPCs and the like and we shouldn't make GM's and developers the only ones responsible for providing good quality roleplay (which they currently don't, as far as I'm concerned.) Normal Mining and Mercenary guilds shouldn't belong to this list, as it would turn everyone else's Mining or Mercenary guild into a useless venture.

Organizations like the main cults of Laanx and Talad, town guards, road wardens, important roguish enterprises, etc. could benefit from this as they'd be a lot more fun with players within giving some orientation. These guilds should be just enough to guarantee that Yliakum can live on its own with or without players while allowing the existence of many options for players to explore in their group projects.
Disclaimer: This is my opinion and I can be reasoned with. I'm probably right, though.

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Mythryndel

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Re: Approved guilds?
« Reply #143 on: July 23, 2008, 01:38:00 pm »
I just had a thought... the proposed approach to allowing players to affect setting is kind of a top-down concept. I think what might be easier to implement, and in a way that is much less prone to bias would be the following:

1. Identify what areas are lacking or need to be implemented.
2. Create a NPC or group of NPCs that will help accomplish the desired outcome.

An example that I see right now (yes, i know i have said some of this before)

Example problem:
   There is a serious lack of crafted weapons.
Possible reasons for the problem:
   Lack of desire by players to mine the required ore.
   Lack of sufficient metallurgy skill to create ingots/stock
Possible solutions:
   Create NPCs that are able to sell required items for crafting
   Create NPCs that are able to sell the ore/ingots/stock sold by players to other players
   Allow players to have a real house or store with a NPC that would buy components at a price set by the owner

What i see gained in this example is the following:

1. less grinding for those that are not inclined to do so.
2. Better support for player crafters that don't want to also be miners.
3. More time in-game that can be devoted to interacting with players because of time saved while doing their characters job.
4. Larger supply of crafted weapons available in-game.

This means more up-front thought, but addresses each individual area of concern for settings without requiring characters to be associated with a guild and without players being able to cry foul or accuse favouritism.

Some might ask how this relates to settings or players affecting Y'liakum... Crafted weapons are something that ONLY players can create. These are a tangible item (to our characters) that changes the way the world is. Other crafting professions could be helped by the groundwork for the example as well... think custom armor or clothing. If the devs keep to the arguments they have right now concerning weapons... custom clothing and armor will also only be available from player crafters. This is a good thing, but will likely have the same issues of players not using it to it's full potential.

please understand that i am not saying this specific example will fix all the settings problems. It is an example of identifying a problem and finding an appropriate solution that achieves the desired result. Sorry if this is bit hard to follow...

Bubba

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Re: Approved guilds?
« Reply #144 on: August 13, 2008, 03:57:02 pm »
(I apologize in advance if this is considered an improper 'bump'.)

Even though new, I would like to throw my opionion out there regarding this and related issues. My suggestions might be considered off the wall, but I have put some thought into it, and have some experience in the workings and drama surrounding similar institutions in other games.

I think there should be "approved guilds" in PS - but not in the sense that any of the existing guilds should be 'selected' or 'chosen' for receiving some kind of 'stamp of approval'. As many have mentioned, it is far too easy for this to come across as a kind of favoritism, and 'guilds' as PS knows them now can display a certain degree of instability. Instead, I think there should be officially sanctioned municipal guilds for each of the major crafts created by the powers that be for the propagation of those trades for the good of all. While the municipal council (headed by the Vigesimi of Hydlaa, perhaps) would be responsible for the founding of these "approved guilds" (the number and nature of which should be directly connected to the craft possibilities in-game), the posts within them - president, treasurer, consultant, etc. - should be open to players. The bylaws of each guild should be adaptable, yet adhere to a basic framework set out by the municipal council for all guilds in general (for example, perhaps requiring that democratic elections be held to determine the assignment of posts).

Further, I think there should be guild houses located in Hydlaa (being the largest city on the upper level), perhaps even in their own district. The governing body of the guild should be required to 'lease' the house from the city for a regular fee for a limited time with the option to continue the lease indefinately. Guild houses should always remain property of the municipality. However, the houses themselves should not be 'static'.

Guild houses should start out as 'standard', e.g. 'modestly' decorated buildings which can be 'upgraded' (through the application of new skins) to reflect the status and prosperity of the guild. Three or four 'upgrade levels' should be sufficient to provide incentive and common goals for the guild administration to work towards. These 'upgrades' should cost a hefty sum, collected either through guild membership dues, through the sale of guild surplus goods, or a combination of both, should be payable to the municipal council, and should also increase the amount the guild needs to pay to the city to maintain their lease. If the new lease amount cannot be paid, then the house should be 'downgraded' to reflect the loss in status and/or wealth.

Having such "officially approved" guilds would more fully integrate the concept of guilds into the game: they become public institutions instead of 'clubs'. Of course, certain guilds - such as a rogues guild or a thieves guild - should never receive municipal support. But that certainly doesn't mean they can't continue to exist. Nor does it mean that independent guilds cannot continue to exist outside of the "official" system of guilds. But - just as in the real world - they would be faced with certain difficulties if they wanted to compete with the bigger, more well established guilds. Would the established guilds enjoy a kind of monopoly? To some degree, yes. But monopolies such as this are 100% in-context for the level of civilization PS is set in.

Such guilds could jump-start establishing a large-scale virtual economic system. They would create a source of internal revenue for the city, which could then feed into the RP of development and expansion in the future. They would also allow the possibility of large-scale, long-term "guild quests": For example, the governing body of a guild might have the opportunity of cutting a deal with the municipal council to produce a certain amount of goods in a limited period of time in exchange for a reduction in rent fees for one in-game month or year, trade rights with other levels, access to hidden resources or new technologies, etc. This would require them organizing their members and working together towards a common goal with benefits palpable by all.

A bit over-the-top, perhaps. But that's something I would love to see become a (virtual) reality.  :)

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Mythryndel

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Re: Approved guilds?
« Reply #145 on: August 13, 2008, 04:27:26 pm »
Actually, I kinda like that idea... and it is very similar in intent to what I have termed elsewhere as Occupations. It would be a way to make a living using game mechanics, and not randomly killing things for trias.

The only reason I would prefer "Occupations" to what you have termed, is that you can only belong to a single Guild... and I don't see a lot of people disbanding their guilds just to sign up for one of these "Approved" ones.

Bubba

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Re: Approved guilds?
« Reply #146 on: August 13, 2008, 04:59:56 pm »
I just read up on your posts regarding "occupations" and from what I can tell, I agree (especiall this post: http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32154.msg370892;topicseen#msg370892). Something like this would dramatically increase the variety of situations in which good RP can take place.

Would people leave their present guilds? Would they have to? Membership in at least two guilds - one "official", one "private" - should be theoretically possible. (How else are members of a thieves guild going to get access to information relating to the transport of big shipments of goods so they can tell their fellow theives where and when to strike, if not by 'spying', i.e. gaining access to an official guild under false pretenses? We shouldn't be limited to buying our information from opportunistic grinders! We should be able to get our hands really dirty! :D )

P.S. Where do you buy your asbestos underwear? I'm going to need some of those before too long, I'm sure...

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Mythryndel

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Re: Approved guilds?
« Reply #147 on: August 13, 2008, 07:17:59 pm »
What's your size, I will try to craft you some... :)

Dreamcrafter

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Re: Approved guilds?
« Reply #148 on: August 13, 2008, 09:15:12 pm »
"Approving" guilds that are thematically cohesive is logical, and it's one good way to reward RP.  And YES, RP should be rewarded.  Grinding gets a ton of rewards in the sense of PP, money, etc.  RP, since that's supposedly the focus of PS, should be given some kind of reward as well.  I think it's a fairly basic, obvious step to reward RP if it's really the desired behavior, the intent behind an immersive gaming experience.  There are too many guilds now that seem like their only goals are to allow them to grind better through teamwork, and cool if that's what they enjoy, but the rewards for that are obvious.  The rewards for RPing should exist, not because RP is a chore, but because if  you're RPing you aren't grinding, and you're going to end up coming up short compared to all the grinders out there anyway... so why not get something back for improving the atmosphere of the game by staying IC?

Mythryndel

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Re: Approved guilds?
« Reply #149 on: August 13, 2008, 10:18:17 pm »
If you REALLY believe that there should be a reward for RP... it should be ONLY on a per character basis. Also, guilds require money for houses and all kinds of things, including a guild house. How are you supposed to gain that without using the mechanics, or enlisting a few people that don't mind actually using the mechanics to get ahead? Are these characters supposed to gain the same benefits of the Approval as the RPers in the guild?

 Besides that... as much as you imply that RP is neglected, there have been several things stated elsewhere to the effect of RP is its own reward... and GM events are largely designed around the RP crowd. Most PLers, as they are often called, don't bother involving themselves in these... so you are not forgotten... or a second class citizen. So please drop the over dramatization.