not enough people use the bug tracker

[Zwenze]

Zwenze... you are thinking like a coder. You are not thinking like a non-techie.

Because I am one  

I spend most my days over the last 5 and a half years being a pass-through for end users and coders. Unfortunately a lot of coders really don't have much in the way of people skills. Is it really that much more difficult to come up with some polite boiler plate to put in the ticket instead of a very brief "dupe of XYZ - closed" that makes the user that reported it feel like they didn't really do anything worthwhile?

I see the problem from both sides. Those who close a bug should be a bit more polite and giving more positive feed back. Those who report bugs should try to see the bug tracker as a technical platform and don't feel offended when there is little or no sign of appreciation there as the developers are focusing on the problem and how to fix it.

For my self I can say I am a really bad multitasker. When I am in "development mode", I can code and I am concentrated on coding details and such stuff - every thing else including communication skills lacks then. When I am in "social mode" I can talk to people and see their point but I miss the necessary concentration to do really serious development stuff. And a switch between modes takes some time.

I am around in game and on IRC often. If you feel that a bug I have worked on is closed in an inappropriate way or my fix I delivered is not complete or lacking feel free to nudge me there as your chances in catching me in "social mode" are higher. And there you can have signs of appreciation like "that was a really helpful bug report as it helped me to pin point and fix the real problem fast, great work, thanks a lot".

BTW, I never closed one as I don't have the authority   I made my previous post to describe the "is" situation and to explain what is happening to ease the frustration of those who reported the bug. But the point is taken, if I am working on bugs submitted by non coding guys I will add some coffee and cookies to my bug tracker posts in future  

I think that you/we are kind of in a catch-22. The coders feel like their efforts are unappreciated, but so do the users that are doing their part and getting a brush off. Do I have all the answers? no. Have I come up with a spiderman decoder ring for translating end user < - > coder? Um... i am still employed... so again... no.

We all are still growing, developing PlaneShift and our skills and also improving our self every day. Give us some time  

[Mythryndel]

Zwenze, Xillix, Carrrie... I understand completely. I deal with the same things professionally every day. I am trying to help the game. I have run into some RL issues that have kept me from doing as much testing for PS as i would like. I have submitted, hopefully helpful and detailed, bug reports. I know what it is like trying to juggle my time and still do "paperwork".

In thinking about this some more... maybe it would be a good idea to have a forum discussion area for newer players (or non-technical players) to report things in a informal setting until they get a feel for what is needed from the technical side. At least in the short term (read as at least a few months), i would be happy to monitor that forum area and take the necessary details and create a well-formed bug tracker ticket. If this doesn't work well, chuck it up as a lesson learned. I am probably naive, but I think this would help bridge the gap and make peoples submissions feel more appreciated. That way the technical people and the non-technical people don't have to get offended by each other.

Please understand that I do understand the limited amount of time people have. I see a LOT being done in the game on a regular basis. I am not hurt or offended by short, curt responses in the tracker... but i am a coder and a techie. I am just trying to do what I can to help support your efforts.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

I just like to mess with people some times . . .

Maybe we can have it give some automated msgs of some sort, you know like what happens if I write the President of the United States . . .

Impersonal automatic niceties spammed upon the closing of a bug.

The idea about more detailed fields has merit, though my concern would be diminishing returns. Time spent making the bug tracker speak to the non-techie is time lost fixing bugs/processing reports . . . cost benefit analysis . . .

How about some of the people who complain all the time about various things place their comment here also?

Some rpers maybe?

If you don't use the bugtracker, why don't you?

[Caarrie]

We want people to use the tracker and idealy not even mention bugs on the forum, making a temp "bugs" forum section would not only waste our time trying to get info from the "reporter" but waste your time as you would have to help us in contacting the person that reported the issue.

[Mythryndel]

Carrrie... i'm still willing to do the leg work if you want to give it a try. That way you and yours don't have to do that leg work and hopefully when a report hits the tracker, it is already in a form that you can just take and run with. I can even try to reproduce on my own test system before posting so I can fill in any missing details on exactly what caused the offending functionality (assuming i can get it working again).

I am not trying to force this on anyone... just know that I understand what I am offering to get myself into. I am ready, willing, and able to do what I offered if TPTB in PS want to take me up on it.

All i ask in return is a few snorks... you can keep the carebears...

[Prolix]

I am glad to see that those posting here are pretty much in agreement. There is just one thing I want to know and that is where can we have the conceptual discussions that I think are necessary? Every time I try to get one started someone or other thinks it is just complaining or is an excuse for complaining and the threads die before they get anywhere. Is there a game concept tag for the bug tracker? Some things are not really wrong but they could be more right. Some design choices are made because that is how the person doing it could figure out how to get it done. Maybe a new sub-forum of Development Deliberation would be useful, it seems less used down there so maybe there will be less noise to the signal.

Otherwise, is it possible to let the complainers complain and speak around them? I know misery loves company but commiseration does not really get anywhere and berating the complainers just adds more. I have no problem with paying lip service to the complaints (commiseration) as long as there is also some real substance to the comment. A "spoon full of sugar" and all that. Castigating  people who are laying there whimpering is counter productive.

I do understand the development team has their frustrations but the rest of us have a few as well.

Remember: good snorks are never snarky! or is that good smurfs are always smarmy...?

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

heh, I thought we sorted that out. A lot of times it just seems like nit-picking. I am not saying it is not stuff that should get done eventually, but remember when the npc client is often down it is hard to care whether the master rock pick is harder to use than that rock pick.

I mean, sure I can create a sub forum that I also ignore (like most devs now do) or you can have me occasionally say something is not worth our attention right now.

Remember the is A LOT to track.

Moving forward, looking back, reading forums, monitoring irc, etc etc etc.

With as much as you are already doing prolix, you should just surrender and apply to the testing team or another of your choice, believe me having the inside track is quite illuminating. . .

[Prolix]

* Prolix puffs out his jowls in a most Churchillian manner.

"I Wear My Sunglasses At Night" ¹Thank you very Much!
"Mommies alright, Daddies alright, they just seem a little weird!"² No wait, that's wrong ....
"They carry news that must get through
To build a dream for me and you" That's the ticket!³
"We will never surrender!"⁴

I'm not saying it always has to be about things that have already been developed, and it isn't always about little things either.
For example I take issue with the apparent plan to have all skills have the same number of levels. What the heck is 200 metallurgy supposed to give you? What ore will you be unable to smelt before you max it out and how can it be that much harder than iron? I suppose it will not be an ore but creating an uber alloy but that is beside the point. Why is it harder to melt gold than to create steel? Why can't you make a sandwich with beginning cooking? How many levels do you need to make a finished meal? Sure it is early days for cooking right now and I am glad to have something.

I suppose I would have to join the team to discover how much consideration these factors rate. From the outside a lot of it looks cobbled together on an ad hoc basis. I am sure it looks worse than it really is.

So is there a design team or is it just whatever you can get Talad to agree to or even anything he does not outright reject after implementation? Are there some people looking at the whole or are you teams isolated in your cubicle farms, so to speak?

1. Corey Hart - no not that song rather "Never Surrender" Ohh what crummy Can-con!!!
2. Cheap Trick - "Surrender" - ha-ha fooled you.
3. Led Zeppelin - "No Quarter" - two bits a play!
4. Winston Churchill. "...on the beaches..." - speaks for itself.

[neko kyouran]

this thread has gone on long enough with people not seeing the true issue that we face here


no one is giving me cookies.




 

[Prolix]

* Prolix gives neko a tracking cookie and starts monitoring his travels.

[Caarrie]

So is there a design team or is it just whatever you can get Talad to agree to or even anything he does not outright reject after implementation? Are there some people looking at the whole or are you teams isolated in your cubicle farms, so to speak?

There is no design team, we all make suggestions to talad and he has to approve them. If you are on the dev team you have an advantage there . We are looking for people that have skills to talk to people in all teams, but that is not a requirement. We do have ways to contact the other teams so we are not working on our own. Especially the testing team cant live if we have no contact with the other teams, we need devs and prospects to fix the bugs.

[Caarrie]

come on people what is keeping you from using the tracker to report bugs? Let us know so many we can make the process easier or change things so you will.

[Lorit]

Fear of actually writing something and lack of knowledge - what to write? how to write? what do I need in the report? etc.   Too much time playing PS and not thinking about bugs.  These are some of the reasons I haven't. 

I have a whack of quest 'bugs' I need to submit too (but those need to go directly to Rizin). 

I need to just get started and see if these things that I experience have been listed before - you know like that partial tunnel blockage between the Magic Shop and Hydlaa that only seems to be a problem when I hit it? - I back up, shift left or right and go through - and the thought of actually submitting flees as I run towards EBD.  Is it just me?  Is it just Ylians?  Is it only when I am loaded?  Or is it only when I am wearing my horned helmet?

[Caarrie]

Fear of actually writing something and lack of knowledge - what to write? how to write? what do I need in the report? etc.   Too much time playing PS and not thinking about bugs.  These are some of the reasons I haven't. 

Make the report and if we need more information we will always ask you for more. Or start off by giving even more information then you think is needed.

I need to just get started and see if these things that I experience have been listed before - you know like that partial tunnel blockage between the Magic Shop and Hydlaa that only seems to be a problem when I hit it? - I back up, shift left or right and go through - and the thought of actually submitting flees as I run towards EBD.  Is it just me?  Is it just Ylians?  Is it only when I am loaded?  Or is it only when I am wearing my horned helmet?

I have not off hand seen a report of this, so please make one and include all the above information it will be helpful for us testers when testing it. Also include what maps you might have been though before you got there.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Currently I am managing the prospect hiring for all departments and am the closest thing you get to someone who is looking at the whole. By periodically playing the game as a noob character, scouring the forums for useful info (much less rewarding than it seems sry) as well as asking the prospects to constantly test quests and other content to broaden their knowledge, I take one of the broadest views of the state of things available atm.

Talad ultimately does quality control for all creative assets. In the is way he is another person looking at the whole picture. Game balance is attempted in broad strokes here or there, this is why feedback  via the bug tracker is essential.

You all must realize that keeping up with hundreds of players and ~ 50 to 100 on and off prospects/contributors is an intense labor and the primary merit of the bug tracker is that it breaks this task into smaller more manageable bits that go directly to people who can actively affect the change you seek. So please do give it a try.

The dev team has weekly meetings where everyone is apprised of what all depts have been up to in the previous week so the most active contributors have a good sense of what is going on.

I hope this answers some of your concerns and speaks to why I can occasionally be a bit snarky. My perpetual sarcasm is my defense against the unending mountain of work to be done to bring you planeshift.