Recent Rash of Rather Harsh Responses

[Lolitra, Celorrim Purrty Twins]

Saying "are -you- and idiot?" is an affront on the person who it is aimed at - it is stating you are more superior in intellect, when you might not be.  So, in fact it CAN be construed as a personal attack on them using words.   To avoid this it would be better to say "Did you not read my post?  Surely if you did you should have understood what I meant - however, to clarify it, let me expound on what I meant..."
You are not then seeming to belittle or name call.   If you have to say something is wrong - try not to use words that can be deemed as offensive - such as stupid or idiotic... better to word it in a softer way - such as 'it is pointless for this reason' or 'did not really have any purpose or content for' you MUST always back your 'putting down' of anothers oppinion with reason, as to have a right to say your oppinion, you have a responsibility to listen to others' and give reason/understanding to yours.

To say that just because you don't know them, you cannot hurt them with your words is insensitive, and lacking of understanding of the human nature we all have.   The written word is a powerful media and actually is known to cause more distress than the spoken when aimed at - or even seemingly aimed at an individual, or group.

Where-as some are less skilled at articulating themselves in either the spoken language or the written one, those who deem themselves as skilled at it only serve to harm their own reputation when they fail to consider the readers' reactions to what is written.  That said - we all have failings, I am very quick to admit that - as I have fallen flat on my face from acting without taking the time to think first.  And when I mean think - I don't mean about what upset me, but how what I reply may exacerbate a bad feeling if I write it as I think it. 

I stress, the written word is something that can cut deep as it is more perminant - it is harder to take it back... and people find it harder to forgive.

Then there is the fact that 'translation' can cause serious misunderstandings... as each culture, language and age group has different uses for phrases and alike!

Please post as if you are posting to a person you respect and with whom you love dearly, do so with gentle persuation, and articulate reason - yes wrap it up in cotton - you may be surprised how more receptive the reader might be?

Sorry if I have bored the pants off of you readers.

[Parallo]

I do not think the problem is how people post, it is how people read posts. I have not seen anyone been called an idiot here, save Datruth, and if I have it was that long ago I forgot therefore I would imagine that the problem isn't actual meanness but coldness, also known as professionalism in some circles. If my post isn't filled with love for someone I really don't know or care about, it is normal. If you expect it then you are the one that is mistaken. Basically, don't expect every post to be like a letter from your best friend or mother. It isn't rainbowland, its the internet.

[Lolitra, Celorrim Purrty Twins]

I am sorry you feel that way, I in no way say that I EXPECT it of others... I just gave advice on how to avoid upsetting someone.  So to quote yourself

I do not think the problem is how people post, it is how people read posts

you are quite right... Perhaps I should have said - are you so sure?

Nor did I say that anyone had called someone an 'idiot' or similar - I just expressed my oppinion as to how writing such things can be understood by some people.  As to asking you to actually put 'love' into your post - I didn't say that I said  "Please post as if..." there is a difference, it is the difference,  if you cannot see that - I can only say sorry.

Inevitably there will always those who just post brashly - as you said - it is the internet  - but consider this - "we reap what we sew."  I cannot recall who originally said this - but to use a parrellel 'a society gets the government they deserve' and on that note if we decide to accept it - we deserve it.

[Shaman]

Quote of the month, easy.

[Anumesa]

I do not think the problem is how people post, it is how people read posts. I have not seen anyone been called an idiot here, save Datruth, and if I have it was that long ago I forgot therefore I would imagine that the problem isn't actual meanness but coldness, also known as professionalism in some circles. If my post isn't filled with love for someone I really don't know or care about, it is normal. If you expect it then you are the one that is mistaken. Basically, don't expect every post to be like a letter from your best friend or mother. It isn't rainbowland, its the internet.

Still, it takes less then 30 seconds to reword a sentence so that it is less likely for the meaning to be misconstrued. Sure, the posts don't have to be ridiculous: "Friend, lets sit and meditate on this issue while sharing a mocha espresso", but they can still be polite. In fact, it takes ZERO effort to be polite, since half the effort is taken away from you with the anonymity of the internet. You don't have to control your tone of voice, your facial expression, body language etc. All you have to do is move your fingers and type a simple polite response. There is nothing preventing us from being decent to each other except for the egos of some, who still feel the need to force their superior intellect down the throats of others.

I agree that since this -is- the internet and it -is- anonymous, you dont -have- to be polite to everyone...in fact that is your choice not to be so, but when half the community could consider a person an ass because of their rude comments (im not thinking of anyone specifically, its just a generalization), it seems to me that the easier path would just be to be polite. Then again, some, like Parallo pointed out, don't care what others think. It is an individual choice to think before you type, and yes no one can be forced to do so...but to me at least it is common sense to do so.

[Lolitra, Celorrim Purrty Twins]

I do not think the problem is how people post, it is how people read posts.

Just a simple question - at what point in your mind does the problem start to lie at the feet of the person posting - rather than the reader who is affronted by what is written?  I am a staunch beleiver in the right to an oppinion - but - how far down the line do we go before we say - 'hey hang on - that was just plain rude, or that was inappropriate, or just uncalled for... '  should we have to wait until then - or as I think some may agree - should we not take steps by example to avoid getting to that stage?  You never know, it might just catch on. [Though I some how doubt it as there are those who just relish antaganising others]

If there were no reader there would be no problem with the post and what is meant by it, but as soon as someone starts to read it, there lies the problem - how do they understand what they think you meant in it?

[Marqsaynt]

First off, I’d like to say that these forums have actually become a lot more welcoming over the past year or two. Back when I was new, the PS forums where seriously caustic and I’d read them but, you couldn’t pay me to post. However, I’d like to point out that even the often hostile atmosphere of the forums back then, in no way made me want to stop playing the game. If a person judged every game by their forums, I don’t think anyone would ever even try playing a computer game ever again. People may get mad and leave the forums from time to time but, I honestly don’t think that having “mean” people on the PS forums is a very common reason for player/testers actually leaving the game.

Secondly, I don’t think that the way a post is received in most cases is entirely the fault of the reader or the writer. In general I see a few main things that seem to contribute fault to both parties, blaming one or the other just seems like an extreme to me and intuitively it seems that the truth is somewhere more in the middle.


To the reader:

If something can be construed in two ways, one “attacking” and the other comical, always choose to read it in the comical way. 9 times out of 10 it was meant to be funny and even if it wasn’t, at least you got a chuckle out of it and the “attacker” didn’t even get the satisfaction of a reaction. 

The world and all the people on the forums aren’t out to get you. Just because someone makes a general comment you may disagree with or seems to include your type, doesn’t mean that it was directed at you. People are usually too caught up in themselves to really come up with such subtle jabs at someone else. Disagree and counter the argument all you want but, do your best not to take it personally.


To the posters:

Professional courtesy is still part of posting in a professional tone. A little politeness can go a long way. People aren’t robots and still need a little kindness or at least tactful respect. Even in professional circles, it’s what makes the world go round.

Odds are if you go back and look at some of your first posts, they’ll make you cringe at least a little. Everyone was new at some point. Sure it gets really old commenting on the same thing about specific PS forum rules or how to create a really killer PS guild but, they aren’t doing it to annoy you, they’re new and most likely don’t know you from Talad. Try to teach not tell.

---

Finally, just as a closing comment, if everyone involved with PlaneShift had a massive bout of shame come over them every time someone decided they wanted to spend their time doing something else, we mine as well just change the release from Crystal Blue to a perpetual Guilty Green. As hard as it may be to believe, PS may not be the best fit for everyone. Some individuals, for whatever reason, may be happier playing some other game or doing something else. That's not really the fault of PlaneShift or it's community. Just like some real life relationships don't work out, if someone "breaks up" with PS, then I assume it just wasn't meant to be. To borrow and tweak an old saying, "you can please all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you can't please all the people all the time."


Edit:

"Friend, lets sit and meditate on this issue while sharing a mocha espresso"

I'm totally going to use that one of these days.

[neko kyouran]

Personal Attack:  "Cado, you're an ignoramus elitist slob and I hope you die in a fire and then your ashes drown in a pool of your own vomit that you puked up just before dying in said fire."

General Attack:  "To the rest of the community, I hate you all.  You all smell like rotten eggs and you can all just gtfo mah forums before I resort to ban hammering each and every one of you."

Both are unacceptable and causal for the ban stick.  The moderation staff is here to ensure that threads don't get out of line and that they don't devolve to the type of examples listed above.  This isn't to say that people should treat the moderation staff as "big daddy" that will always be there to right what is wronged and all that jazz. 

I'm pretty much laid back for moderations' sake. Sure, I'll lock/delete/whatever some things I find that could cause trouble or try to play go between between groups that are starting to get a bit snippy at each other, but for the most part I try to keep to the ideal that if everyone just thinks about what they are about to type, before they type it out and push that post button, and think about how your post may come across to others, then for the most part, my job as moderator would never be needed.  I know, I know, civility on the internet?  I must be crazy.  But hell, I'd like to think a poor kitty can still have his dreams though.

And this thread ties into my points, sooooo if you haven't read it, go read it and the article linked therein, and if you have, go read it again.   http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32840.0

Edit:  and one more thing.  Looking on the bright side, at least no one has tried to start a your momma fight yet.   

[Parallo]

Still, it takes less then 30 seconds to reword a sentence so that it is less likely for the meaning to be misconstrued.

Being clear and unambiguous is not the same thing as being polite.

Just a simple question - at what point in your mind does the problem start to lie at the feet of the person posting - rather than the reader who is affronted by what is written?

It is a vague point as so far in our discussion the only example of a rude post in your opinion is calling someone an idiot which simply doesn't happen here. Give me an example of what you would consider borderline rude and I will tell you my opinion and why I hold that opinion.

[Waylander]

Personal Attack:  "Cado, you're an ignoramus elitist slob and I hope you die in a fire and then your ashes drown in a pool of your own vomit that you puked up just before dying in said fire."

General Attack:  "To the rest of the community, I hate you all.  You all smell like rotten eggs and you can all just gtfo mah forums before I resort to ban hammering each and every one of you."

Both are unacceptable and causal for the ban stick.  The moderation staff is here to ensure that threads don't get out of line and that they don't devolve to the type of examples listed above.  This isn't to say that people should treat the moderation staff as "big daddy" that will always be there to right what is wronged and all that jazz. 

I'm pretty much laid back for moderations' sake. Sure, I'll lock/delete/whatever some things I find that could cause trouble or try to play go between between groups that are starting to get a bit snippy at each other, but for the most part I try to keep to the ideal that if everyone just thinks about what they are about to type, before they type it out and push that post button, and think about how your post may come across to others, then for the most part, my job as moderator would never be needed.  I know, I know, civility on the internet?  I must be crazy.  But hell, I'd like to think a poor kitty can still have his dreams though.

And this thread ties into my points, sooooo if you haven't read it, go read it and the article linked therein, and if you have, go read it again.   http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32840.0

Edit:  and one more thing.  Looking on the bright side, at least no one has tried to start a your momma fight yet.   

Wouldn't it be "You're an ignoramus and an elitist slob"?

Or "You're an ignorant, elitist slob"...

And I try to be a very well informed elitist slob, thank you very much!

On topic though, I don't see any need to moderate posts that are only somewhat rude.  To quote "National Lampoon's Van Wilder" "Censorship reflects societies lack of confidence in itself."  But, striving to be nice is always a good thing to do.  Just don't expect everybody to follow along and a harsh response is quite often exactly what is needed.

[Prolix]

Why is this dumb argument continuing? All it serves to do is to make all participants look like they have nothing better to do than squabble over trifles. Get a life! Better still, get a Knife and cut it out.

Sometimes the problem is not in the writing nor the reading but different locale specific meanings for idioms used. You cannot blame the writer for using a phrase that means "you are great" in his community just as you cannot blame the reader if it means "what a jerk" in his community. A classic example of this problem is the use of the N-word which some urbanized afro-Americans have adopted for themselves. Another example is some Italian Canadian called me paesano and I though he was insulting me when he thought he was calling me neighbor or some such thing.

Wasn't I rude to call this argument dumb?   It is kind of dumb but it is not nice to just say so.

[Mathy Stockington]

Now that we have all gotten this off our chests, can we agree that we are all different? We are from all over the world, some with limited English skills and some with superior skills. The bottom line is that we are all in this together and should try to be polite to each other whenever possible. No we do not have to love each other, but we can try to be a team and play the best we can. The forums are a bonus for us where we can speak our mind, but that does not give anyone permission to be rude.

Rude defined by Merriam-Webster:

 lacking refinement or delicacy: a: IGNORANT, UNLEARNED b: INELEGANT, UNCOUTH c: offensive in manner or action : DISCOURTEOUS d: UNCIVILIZED, SAVAGE e: COARSE, VULGAR

On a personal note: Kjenlan you seem like a nice person I would like to hear from you again, but if I do not, I wish you well.

[zorbels]

AHHHHHH! 

There is so much blame the gets thrown around in this forums. It is both the poster and the readers fault. Not one OR the other. This also involves common sense, and communication between posters and readers.

It is the posters choice to not re-word a post the may sound flamish, or not to bother wording a post in a way which would be taken offense if it is a delicate topic.

It is the readers choice for thinking that the post maybe flamish and deciding to argue rather than just leave it alone or find out if it was even directed at you and meant to offend.

I have been on either end of this stupid debate. I have both taken offense when I shouldn't have and given offense by not meaning to. What I did to fix those misuderstandings is to post a public apology if it was needed and talk to the person who thought I had offened them. I went out of my way to fix my messes and arguements out of the public eye as much as possible so that other readers didn't have to even know there was an issue.

If your part of the problem then by god people start cleaning up your own messes and stop blaming what ever is most convenient.