Your thoughts on death and the death realm.

[Nikodemus]

ooook, but if i'm understanding right, yoiu assume stat drain should be beacause of getting old and experiencing it after going back from DR after a long time...
I don't know any player character who would be in the DR over decades! IMO it is pointless to create stats drainage just for the sake of this.
And i can't repeat it better. (I'm tired of doing so repeteadly) There is no such thing as 1 rl month =1 in game year or alike time conversion. Giving yet another example, it woold mean we are running 360km/h. Sounds crazy? Because it is.

[Duraza]

ooook, but if i'm understanding right, yoiu assume stat drain should be beacause of getting old and experiencing it after going back from DR after a long time...
I don't know any player character who would be in the DR over decades! IMO it is pointless to create stats drainage just for the sake of this.
And i can't repeat it better. (I'm tired of doing so repeteadly) There is no such thing as 1 rl month =1 in game year or alike time conversion.

Alright, I think I understand what your trying to say now though I could have sworn there was some sort of thing I heard about days In Yliakum traveling faster than RL days. There has to be some kind of conversion. Else how do you expect the years to move by (Right now they are stuck at 750 but supposedly when the game is finished and officially starts time will pass by)?

If years pass by in game as they do in real life then your right and this idea is pointless unless you were to speed up the stat decay which would be something I'd disagree with(as it would be pointless). However if I am right and Yliakum years are supposed to go faster than real life years (which would sort of make sense so time can actually pass), then I don't see why the stat decay shouldn't exist.

Giving yet another example, it woold mean we are running 360km/h. Sounds crazy? Because it is.

Your example specifically doesn't help to prove your point in the least bit to me simply because this is a game. It cannot match all aspects of life perfectly. Just because they decide that time moves faster ingame (As it does in many games so you can see night and day without actually waiting for night and day to happen in real life) doesn't mean we have to be suddenly running super fast. It's fantasy. Time moving faster can be added for realism. Moving 360km/h can be left out because it's a game, it doesn't have to be perfect.

Edit: Another possibility is Ylikuam just having different dark/light periods in one day (Like I said I can't be totally sure) leading me to believe there must be multiple Yliakum days in one rl day. If I'm wrong then I am but I suppose I really like the idea of stat decay somewhere in the game 

[Mythryndel]

I don't want to pigeon hole you into your rp-land... but I just don't see the DR the same way a lot of others seem to. In a game of this nature, people are going to die. That is a given. Punishing people with permanent loss of stats (as in not-retrainable) is going to really upset people who walk by onyx dagger and get killed in one hit on their way to Brado's or Trasok's. If you are going to penalize stats... at least make them retrainable.

I also don't agree with peoples opinion that going to the DR is supposed to be a terrible thing for people who do not die permanently from... well... dieing. I enjoy visiting the DR on occassion, and rarely use it because I am tired of walking from BD to Akkaio (although I have done this before). I think it is incredibly silly to put so much time and effort into expanding an area that characters are supposed to avoid at all cost.

My opinion...  Either expand it and make it even more enjoyable, but still usable by players, or leave it alone. Stop trying to beat people over the head with penalties for dieing.

[Mordraugion]

I see people are misunderstanding my stats loss suggestion, firstly DR is NOT a nice place, its not supposed to be a pleasant little jaunt to pass away some time and should be treated with caution and avoided like an Ulber pit, with that said I'll try and clarify

A quick visit to the DR because of accidentally death would not affect your stats as long as you exit reasonably quickly (making allowance for new players) and dont die 20 times a day.

However if you choose to use /die as a shortcut or if your character decides to spend more time exploring, training, reading books or just generally hanging out then a cumulative effect will remove certain stats and boost others the longer you remain.

IMHO choices in PlaneShift must have benefits and penalties or there is no point in choosing

[Mythryndel]

So, I understand what you are saying... but I still do not understand the why. The effort involved in bringing an entire area into being, especially in a 3D world like Y'liakum, makes me wonder why you want people to avoid it.

Also, in the short term, I've had to use /die to get around terrain bugs and other issues of getting stuck with "map not found" at least a dozen times in the last 60 days. I know that eventually this will not be necessary, but it is something to keep in mind for the time  being.

[Mordraugion]

why do you assume people will avoid it? that isnt the intention, the idea is to make people think before staying there, weighing up the options of a few decreased stats against some increased stats, knowledge and being closer to ones god (if you choose that religion). Stop thinking of maxing all your stats and start thinking of playing your character

Also, in the short term, I've had to use /die to get around terrain bugs and other issues of getting stuck with "map not found" at least a dozen times in the last 60 days. I know that eventually this will not be necessary, but it is something to keep in mind for the time  being.

A quick visit to the DR because of accidentally death would not affect your stats as long as you exit reasonably quickly (making allowance for new players) and dont die 20 times a day.

[Mythryndel]

People are going to avoid it because they don't want to suffer the consequences. That is the whole point of this discussion going back to before Dakkru's Curse was implemented. Players or Devs got tired of people not respecting the death realm or using it for a shortcut to get to a furnace after mining... so they decided to punish the players who went there. By all means, correct me if I am wrong, but this attitude has been plastered all over these forums, including this thread.

As far as maxing out my character... I really don't care. What I care about is having stats/skills I have EARNED in game being taken away PERMANENTLY. In many other games, there is a penalty for dying, but it can be repaired... for a price. I support some sort of penalty for dying, just [EDIT] NOT taking it to extremes.

The comment on /die-ing was directly in response to you bringing up different consequences for using /die as opposed to being killed by a critter.

A quick visit to the DR because of accidentally death would not affect your stats as long as you exit reasonably quickly (making allowance for new players) and dont die 20 times a day.

However if you choose to use /die as a shortcut or if your character decides to spend more time exploring, training, reading books or just generally hanging out then a cumulative effect will remove certain stats and boost others the longer you remain.

I have had to /die more than 6 times in a single day due to Map not Found errors and endlessly falling into space. That was the exception, not the rule, but since you brought this up, I wanted to remind everyone there are very real OOC reasons that people must use this with the current incarnation of the game. /unstick did not work, neither did a relog.

[Mordraugion]

Which part of long term effects dont you understand? I'll repeat I'm not talking about quick visits, /die > run out > back to Living but if you do so 20 times a day every day then you may find yourself in loosing out and yes Dakkrus curse was implemented as an attempt to prevent cheating but the intention for there to be a penalty for visiting, as in choosing to spend time there, has always been planned.

You are obviously still thinking as a Player not your Char, maybe your char would like increased Will and Dark way, above what can be achieved in the living world and would be willing to give up a little strength etc. If you as a player dont want to loose what you gained then dont go for extended trips into Dakkru's realm

[argtjs]

IMHO choices in PlaneShift must have benefits and penalties or there is no point in choosing

In many role playing games, many game masters like this idea of keeping a balance and preventing players from being too strong by the rule "never gives something for free".
But you should not forgot that you're not giving something for free if the players have the feeling that they are progressing when they spend a lot of times playing the game. They've already paid a price. The time they've spent in the game.

In many situations, balancing benefits and penalties does not make sense. While should you be penalized if you've chosen that your character will train a lot hunting ? Does that make you more stupid ? Weak ? I doubt it. Enforcing this type of rule in every situation will be very artificial.

However, I agree that this rule might be good in certain situations. For instance, it is a nice way at the time of the creation of your character to introduce since it might give a lot of varieties in the abilities of the characters. And clearly, it also make sense if you want to give the feeling that the DR should be avoided, not by everyone but by most people.

However, you should be very careful how you would introduce this into the game. You might actually break the balance unless you are very careful with the implementation.
If certain characteristics can only be mastered in the DR, and if you penalize everyone who decide to try to get them, then it might look very unfair, given the fact that all the other characteristics can be trained without any problems in the real world. Thus, to keep a balance, what you could get in the DR should be special. They are no reason to penalize someone who just want to learn a spell which does not have any strong effect, and does not lead to anything special, just for the sake of penalizing people.
You could even say that no real character would sacrifice anything important to gain something not important. Thus, you'll have to work very hard on the balance. What you could gain in the DR should be special, not just get trained by a master of another way, which apart from the name, is close to any other ways. But of course, it should be hard to get, and you should pay a heavy price etc...

Good luck.

[Mythryndel]

Mordraugion... you seem to be implying that i am not reading your words. You specifically stated that using /die would or should be handled differently than dying by mob or duel. And I said specifically "in the short term" this would not be a good condition for determining consequences. What did I supposedly miss again?

Long term... I still don't see the point of PERMANENT stat/skill loss except as a deterrent to players/characters visiting the DR. Yet, you have mentioned that this isn't supposed to keep people from going to the DR. How do come to this conclusion? If this is intended as a further expanded measure against the same people Dakkru's Curse was meant to affect, then I feel my original assessment that this will deter players from going to the DR is still valid. Those that were abusing the DR DID NOT just hang around, but left almost immediately. I think that trying to deter people from going to a place you want to devote dev/settings/art time to expanding is just silly. This thread has had people discussing reasons to "visit" the DR, others talking about not just running through the DR and adding mazes and other things to complicate leaving the DR. What then, would be considered a "visit"?  What if you get lost and spend an hour or 3 in the maze or finding the only active portal at the time you are trying to leave? You may have good thoughts behind your proposal, but I do not agree that it would be a good thing as stated. This is my personal opinion, and nothing more. I am sorry you seem to be getting so frustrated over this, but I simply do not agree with you on this issue, and have stated my reasons.

If you truly wish to deter people from using the DR as a shortcut, perhaps you should consider keeping people in the DR for the 30 minutes, instead of having the curse after they leave. Or possibly have the character burning through their Dakkru's Curse timer while still in the DR, and consider counting time beyond that 30 minutes towards your proposed stat/skill loss. The curse would then be reduced by the time spent in the DR. So, 10 minutes in DR means 20 minutes of curse remains when you leave. Possibly, with a cap, have temporary stat increases/penalties for exceeding the 30 minutes in the DR. I still do not agree with the concept of permanent loss, but I would find this proposal to have the desired effect, without the inevitable player revolt from permanently modifying their character.

[EDIT] The curse timer counting from the time you enter DR or forcing people to stay in DR for the same amount of time as the current curse would encourage people to explore, not just walk straight through. Of those that are trying to use the DR as a shortcut, a significant number of them either aren't carrying enough stuff to be bothered by the curse, or just let their character sit and walk away from their computer... or just pay close attention to a ticket I posted to the bug tracker... The point being, it does not have the desired effect anymore.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

return to proposing ideas instead of attacking or defending their merit.

There will be a time to argue ideas once we have seen what everyone has to say and choose some we thing are good ideas.

The devs are very discerning people, most have played hundreds of games, including planeshift, and come from both pler and rp perspectives.

No need for the forum goers to get up in arms about ideas being thrown around here...

Just throw out your ideas and we'll see what sticks.

How would you like it expanded, what else would you like to see there?

[Eathon]

I'd like some usage of references to/of the numerous "hidden" locations within the DR. They seem important, so presumably NPCs could use them in quests, or mention them in books.

[Arerano]

Permanent loss: NO. It's a game - meant to be fun. If you lose something you have no way of regaining, you _as a player_ will think twice before dying. You - the player - spent real time training.
However, having the choice to lose A for gaining B would be different, yet it shouldn't be forced.
Extending: YES. Extending as in "more to discover".
Maze: NO. Ever tried a "well simulated" 3D maze?
Longer way: rather NO. It should take a bit longer to get out. Maybe but not necessarily by having to "run" further. There could however be a timespan which has to pass before the portal opens for you. A possibly explanation could be that the portal needs to "regain energy" after someone passed. Maybe it could even work that way that the time starts running _after_ someone else passed the portal, draining it's available energy. (however, it would be frustrating if others push themself forward and you have yet to wait another 10 minutes.. and then again)
Punishment/Pain: YES. Albeit not permanent, there should be some punishment (pain) after you left the DR. Maybe the teleportation is a "painful" process. (or the current explanation: Dakkru's curse.). It could even expand the more often you happen to have it. Like draining of stats (halfing, or whatever) starting with 10 minutes and reaching its top at 24 hours (real time - but it shouldn't be necessary to _stay logged on_).
I am sure that would prevent people from having their "dayly joy-visit, yet it doesn't effect those who decide to stay there".

OT: Concerning UTM's comment about "getting beaten half to death": The HP-regain rate could be "current HP"-dependant. In example: <30% = HP go down and you possibly can't heal yourself nor others. ~30% you won't heal without help (and can't heal yourself nor others). ~50% really slow "automatic"-healing - you may be able to cast healing spells on yourself. ~75% normal auto-healing, you can heal yourself, ~90% You can heal others.

[Vannaka]

I know this idea is a bit odd... probably a lot of work too.... but i think it would be cool if the death realm changed frequently.
by this i don't mean you should remake the map every week, that would be insane, but would it be possible to make the map in such a way that certain walkways or bridges or whatever you would call them were movable? then if xillix got bored, he could grab walkwayA and bridgeB and platformC and shuffle them up a bit, just so he can enjoy watching people stop and scratch their heads for a while before sprinting out of DR at full speed.

[Getoran]

I see many people complaining about "cheaters" using /die as a shortcut. Some people here suggest punishment for these guys, but most of these suggestions will harm other people, too (like players who _have_ to die multiple times because of bugs). There is a very easy solution to this problem. Instead of concentrating all the development efforts on a place which noone is supposed to visit, you should concentrate on other forms of transportation.

If players had something like a horse, they wouldn't kill themselves because then their horse is in BD and they are back in Oja. So why not first implement things which are useful for people, instead of designing an area which everybody should avoid and that even will punish you for visiting it?

In my opinion even the models for all the different races are more important than extending the DR with a complex maze or multiple exits and a penaltiy system. Why do you want to put any effort in a place which people should only visit in very rare cases or if they have a very special reason for doing so. There is too much still to do in this game. Too many places, from the living world are still missing.

Just my 2 tria.

Get