My first impressions and observations

[Edig]

Sigh... I've tried reporting a few of the observations through BugTracker... just to dip my toes in before tackling some of the bigger issues I experienced...      Well, I'm afraid that my experience has been... terminal.      ... but when I use bug tracking systems, I keep all reports open until they are resolved. Maybe it's just my opinion, but any sort of usability thing like that would normally get high attention so as not to discourage new users from coming on board.

I've been reticent to actually say anything regarding this "issue" of using the bug tracker, but I don't think it's a medium I will use ever again. I did recently submit a bug; one I thought was serious enough to warrant reporting.  The bug was closed with the following response:

Begin Copy:
IReason for closing:  Duplicate
Additional comments about closing:  Hi, and thanks for reporting it :-) Though it is a duplicate of closed bug  (bug number removed)  (closed bugs don't show in the default search). I would have thought it would be in the latest release by now, but obviously not... I couldn't be bothered to set up a stable server to check that, but I verified that it is fixed in the unreleased map for the next version.
End Copy:

I don't know that I will "bother" to submit any further things I find. 

In my company the state you described would be RFC (ready for customer) the bug would only be "closed" once the deliverable has shipped with the included fixes. Just a thought...

I had this business once in California (many years ago) and if I had "closed" any type of action report [BEFORE] it was actually a resolved issue, the customer(s) could have gone to the City to report me and have my business license stripped!  That's no joke.  They call it fraud.  Now I do realize that this is a free game with people working for free on the game and bug testers testing for free, but the "I couldn't be bothered" thing has been the downfall of many a companies in the past.  If I did that in my current job, I'd be let go so fast my head wouldn't have time to spin.

Perhaps (as a simple suggestion) the updater should be integrated into the launcher so it would update automatically and then update more often.  Call them minor bug patches if you wish who cares, the point is, if you fix things that are client side, then update the clients as soon as the bugs are fixed or patches ready.  Call them minor patches?

There are other things I could easily point out, but I've been told (and rather not too politely either) to update my video card before I make suggestions regarding maps and the such so... I wont be making those reports for a very, very long time.

[Mordraugion]

I don't know that I will "bother" to submit any further things I find. 

Sorry but I find that a little disturbing, that you can't be bothered.

I had this business once in California (many years ago) and if I had "closed" any type of action report [BEFORE] it was actually a resolved issue, the customer(s) could have gone to the City to report me and have my business license stripped!  That's no joke.  They call it fraud.  Now I do realize that this is a free game with people working for free on the game and bug testers testing for free, but the "I couldn't be bothered" thing has been the downfall of many a companies in the past.  If I did that in my current job, I'd be let go so fast my head wouldn't have time to spin.

I fail to see where you can say the action report wasn't resolved because some one "couldn't be bothered" nor that it wasn't resolved

Perhaps (as a simple suggestion) the updater should be integrated into the launcher so it would update automatically and then update more often.  Call them minor bug patches if you wish who cares, the point is, if you fix things that are client side, then update the clients as soon as the bugs are fixed or patches ready.  Call them minor patches?

If only it were that easy

There are other things I could easily point out, but I've been told (and rather not too politely either) to update my video card before I make suggestions regarding maps and the such so... I wont be making those reports for a very, very long time.

well I can guess the impolite one who told you that but please dont tar all of us with the same brush

[Mythryndel]

Unfortunately, I've touched on this before... there is a significant rift between those that are part of the PS team and those that are told they are testers, not players, of PS. They do not speak the same language, they rarely communicate well, and two things happen:

1. Testers get frustrated when their bug reports are not given more consideration, or are closed, while the bug still exists when they log into the game.

2. Devs get tired of having to deal with reports of "it's broke" without details or passionate, detailed responses... that they have heard several times already... and may or not be fixed in a test branch.

I have spent the better part of the last 6 years at my current job being a go-between for operators and programmers. They DO NOT speak the same language by default. The programmers look down on the operators for not knowing how to code, or how things work. The operators get upset with the attitude from the programmers who don't seem to care how it is supposed to work. I have offered before to take reports on the forums and then add a quality report to the tracker... it's what I'm good at...

But this issue is not going to go away without a change somewhere. Both sides are somewhat justified in how they feel, but it doesn't get anyone any closer to making PS better.

[Edig]

Sorry but I find that a little disturbing, that you can't be bothered.

Mordraugion, forgive me if I don't turn this into a who is right contest, but perhaps you should be more concerned that the other person couldn't be bothered to make sure the issues was resolved.  If not, that's cool as it is your own observation?  Maybe?

I fail to see where you can say the action report wasn't resolved because some one "couldn't be bothered" nor that it wasn't resolved

Because the issue is still in game and most certainly has not been resloved.  If it's been resolved in files on some computer somewhere else, then great, but it's not made it to the public.  When something has reached the general public, only then should it be considered resolved.  I'm sorry you don't understand that. 

If only it were that easy

I understand that, it was merely a suggestion for the future.

well I can guess the impolite one who told you that but please dont tar all of us with the same brush

Funny that I should hear the same intended voice across multiple people.  And no, I don't think you can guess who the impolite person is, as there have been multiple impolite people.  It's not only one person I've dealt with Mordraugion.  I've had the...  opportunity to deal with many people all of whom have different personalities...  That doesn't diminish the point of this thread or the point of my posts so to get back to the topic...  Those were merely my first impressions and observations.

I do deeply respect the Dev team Mordraugion.  I...  know...  what they have to go through and I know that tempers and attitudes can develop as well as good code.  I do not paint all of you with the same brush and I fail to see where you get that impression, though I can also understand one's need to protect one's people and thereby jump to conclusions about what another person is saying.

But that too does not detract from this thread.  It only furthers the awareness of immediate responses and the need for a better way for people to voice their...  opinions and observations.

(I am also very aware now that this particular thread may put me in some hot water with your teams.  I'm willing to accept that consequence if some good can come of it.  Mythryndel, I'm not a tester, but I do understand what you are saying.  Thanks.)

[Mythryndel]

@Edig... My point was that whenever we, the players, point out issues... we are frequently told that we are testers. Well... not all players are good "testers" or good "bug report writers". There is not really a weed-out or want-to-be process for the player/testers that we are supposed to be.

Ideally, we could all simply be fat dumb and happy players without a care in the world... but given the state of the game, we are not quite that lucky. The way I have offered to bridge the gap is to be a go-between for those that simply want to play and mention that things aren't working and those that are capable of fixing those issues. I have not been taken up on this offer to date.

[h34th]

Players are not testers. Testers require skill and knowledge with software systems. That does not mean knowing how to play games. At least one dev on the team has disagreed publicly in the past with the "players as testers" paradigm. You can try to make them become testers, they might even want to be testers, but it takes time to train a tester on a piece of software, all related systems, and on providing feedback properly on a piece of software.

[Mythryndel]

You state my case very well. I agree that players are not likely to be testers and coders. They are just what they are, players. It does not improve the devs view of the players when they have to weed through 10 different reports that all address the same problem in different language, with varying degrees of detail. It does not improve the players view of the devs when they are told that things are fixed, that aren't on the production server yet. I have offered a solution, but we will have to see where it goes.

I may be starting to sound like a broken record, but this is a problem and it needs to be acknowledged and resolved.

[Edig]

I'm sorry, but I am going to dissassociate myself from those last three comments.  I personally do not believe they served any purpose other than to entice negativity.

Such a shame really. 

As to:

 

@Edig... My point was that whenever we, the players, point out issues... we are frequently told that we are testers. Well... not all players are good "testers" or good "bug report writers". There is not really a weed-out or want-to-be process for the player/testers that we are supposed to be.

My issue isn't with the testers or bug fixers.  My issue is the manner in which the testers or bug fixers (as well as other devs or whomever) communicate (or rather do not communicate or communicate in a manner not befitting PS) which I believe (in my opinion in other words) goes more to the point of the original post of this thread.

While the majority of the Devs to speak (type) in respectful and adult manners, there are those whose only purpose is to prove they are above someone else or to induce reaction.  Others (as the remark in red above) chose a different path of prodding and enticing which I find equally as...  sad.   

Mythryndel, the second part of your post:

Ideally, we could all simply be fat dumb and happy players without a care in the world... but given the state of the game, we are not quite that lucky. The way I have offered to bridge the gap is to be a go-between for those that simply want to play and mention that things aren't working and those that are capable of fixing those issues. I have not been taken up on this offer to date.

... really was uncalled for and very inappropriate to an adult conversation regarding this issue and the topic of the thread.  Surely that could have been reworded to be more... communicative rather than combative?

It can be a hot topic...  no need to make it more so.  Please?

[Vornne]

Reason for closing:  Duplicate
Additional comments about closing:  Hi, and thanks for reporting it :-) Though it is a duplicate of closed bug  (bug number removed)  (closed bugs don't show in the default search). I would have thought it would be in the latest release by now, but obviously not... I couldn't be bothered to set up a stable server to check that, but I verified that it is fixed in the unreleased map for the next version.

I was the one who said that, and I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I "couldn't be bothered" to check the bug. The bug was verified by myself a while ago, then it was closed as fixed by a developer. That is not really the normal procedure, we verify fixed too, except for when the developer closes it first; art bugs are a little different to the normal code bugs, we aren't able to check them until near release.

To clarify, I wasn't saying I couldn't be bothered checking it was fixed, I did; I was saying I couldn't be bothered verifying you were correct that the bug still existed in the current release, as I tested it myself before, but never tested the 'fix'. The stable server is needed to use the release client, and I don't update and it often unless there is a particular bug that needs testing with the current release for some reason, it was cleaned out at this particular time.

Unfortunate choice of words I guess, I was probably tired and rambling 

In my company the state you described would be RFC (ready for customer) the bug would only be "closed" once the deliverable has shipped with the included fixes. Just a thought...

You know what? I agree with you, and have requested that be the procedure before, by adding another status. It was decided against, if I recall correctly; it may have been to do with the fact that this only seems needed on a very small percentage of reports, or to keep the process simple.

I sometimes basically do this, too... if I think duplicates are likely I'll leave them open with the status "postponed" (not correct usage) and check and close after the release; or close the bug the first time; then if there are any duplicates reported afterwards, I leave them open. Probably the reason I didn't do that for this particular report was the precedent set in the previous report, being closed by the developer without testing (and no, it wasn't some unheard of new dev ).

To summarise, sorry, I may have mucked up a bit... as Lanarel said, keep reporting anyway, even if it is closed duplicate. It's not really such a big deal, testers can often find or know of duplicates many times faster than you can search for them, though any effort you make to find them first is appreciated.

[Mythryndel]

It was not meant to be combative. The devs have their idea of how things are supposed to work. They have stated how they see us, the players. I, and many others, have shown where there are some issues with the processes put in place. I am not saying that I can single-handedly save PS from a crushing doom or anything of the sort. I am just a little tired of reading, and re-reading, comments like yours about how the dev team left something to be desired in their responses. The dev team, when they respond here on the forums are equally less than satisfied with things from their side. My only point about the game was that it is alpha. It is not a polished, finished game like WoW or whatever. It was not meant as a slight against PS. Perhaps it is an interpretation issue with the "fat dumb and happy" remark... that is just to say that we would not run into any bugs, the game would not crash on us, we wouldn't have to try to file bug reports... etc. We would simply sit down, log in, and play until we were ready to log off. That phrase in the South Central USA simply means that we would be very content with the way things are.

* Mythryndel sits back and starts to daydream about what 1.0 will be like...

[Edig]

My only point Mythryndel was that stating such a thing in a forum where immaturity, anger and deciet are common is not quite the place to post something about fat slobs.  People will take things down a path they needn't go.  Being careful of how we speak (or type) [can] make things easier and force us to state what we really indend rather than stumble and insert a limb into our mouths.  Not doggin ya dawg, just trying to avoid the rash of "are calling me a fat slob?" remarks...

No game is perfect.  If people don't know that, then spend the 19.95 a month for WoW and you'll see all sorts of major issues that have yet to be resolved.  The same holds true for other games...  Many of them are beginning to fail miserably because they do not hold their people to higher ideals.  They allow their people to berate and belittle the players.  They also have a tendency to favoritism which in the higher eschelon can be very dangerous especially if you have someone overbearing or God-forbid abusive.

Having said that...  The point here is that impression and observation can make or break something.  Everyone, INCLUDING ME, need to stop and think about how their response is going to be taken by someone else BEFORE making a statement which might later be regretted.

My observations could be completely wrong.  I admit that.  (At least I am willing to meet halfway here...)  But since as you point out it is a recurring theme, then perhaps it truly is something which should be investigated.

Vornne,

Please know I hold no malice towards you.  I would have kept your name secret to my end days.  Perhaps I should not have used the bug report response as an example.  I apologize if I've gotten you into any trouble with your leaders.  I do appreciate your efforts.  Honestly I do.  I've been accused of taking something the wrong way before so perhaps this was just the same thing.

[Under the moon]

The Settings Department only closes bugs after they are fixed and ingame, as far as I know. I would not close a bug report on a book typo just because I fixed it in an offline copy. Why it would be any different for other things, I don't have a clue. Things would be best if there were three levels to bugs: Open, Fixed in SVN, Closed. Would save a lot of headaches.

[Prolix]

Speaking as a fat slob, here is my perspective. When you first start out reporting bugs the developers figure you are one of the majority of well meaning reporters with a particular axe to grind. You have come across some part of the game system that you think is obviously broken and your report is piteous plaint from the heart. Once it has been dealt with you will never be heard from again. Please understand I am not saying this in condemnation of the development team as a large number of reports really are like this. I do not mean this to be a condemnation of the reporters either as often this form the report takes on is a result of lack of knowledge in proper reporting procedure and even of what needs to be reported. It does get better for both sides with a little persistence.

So your report has been closed for whatever reason, duplicate, fixed, not a bug, etc. That does not have to be the end of it.

If your bug was marked as a duplicate and it only seems to you that it is slightly related to the bug of which it is listed as duplicate, by all means state your case in that bug. Try to keep to hard facts and reason, an emotional plea is not usually helpful.

If it has been closed as fixed and it does not yet appear to be fixed in the main server, be patient. As has been mentioned previously in this thread many fixes are only applied with a new release and releases are not a dime a dozen. If it is a fix that can be done seamlessly it wil get done before a release, You will often be told which it is, I have seen fixed, pending restart more than once.If your bug is one of these then test it when the restart has happened, sometimes the fix has unintended consequences that need to be reported.

If it  has been closed as not a bug and you do not agree then perhaps you have not made yourself understood. You can still comment on closed bugs and provide further evidence that it really is a bug. Do not expect it to be reopened but it can happen if you make your point. If some time goes along, months at least, and it is still bugging you you can request to have it reopened, not everything that happens to you happens to others and it can take a while for someone else to be able to confirm it. Case in point I reported a bug on the old tracker became this one and eventually got fixed. I believe I first reported it in .17 or something and it was closed because nobody else could detect it. I reported it again in .18 and .19 and I believe it finally got fixed in .4 It was a peculiar map bug and only affected a few systems.

The way to gain the respect of the development team is to learn from what you are told, keep plugging away and improving your reporting skills. It does not hurt to browse the posted bugs either, it helps to see what kind of reports are successful as well as to makeyou think about different aspects of the game. Some bugs are settings related and some can use a fresh perspective.

Use the email report function and try to give more information when requested, If it is asked for and you never go back to see nothing will get done.

Use the search function to try to discover if your bug has already been reported, if you are in doubt whether it is a bug at all you can go on irc to the #planeshift-build channel and inquire as to whether it is known or not. Be polite while you are then and do not fret if nobody replies, many people have irc clients logged in from a persistent connection so that they seem to be present but they may not be monitoring the connection and if they are looking in from time to time they may well be too busy to reply. Irc is worth trying but do not expect too much from it especially before you have a proven track record as a reporter. That reminds me try to be consistent in your nicknames.

[Mythryndel]

@Edig... point taken. I deal with locals, face to face, 90% of the time... and an expression like that is harmless. Although I recall one of our programmers from the great north-west being told he had "the social skills of a pet rock". That is probably the nicest thing I have heard from the guy who said it, but the programmer was so distressed he went and whined to our company president about it. You just never can predict what people are going to react to...

[Edig]

Now that is an important thing to remember.  Many of the children in this game (and many of the adults) do not deal with people face to face anymore and so they don't know how to deal with people in real world situations.

That's also (imho) why there is so much difficulty with communication.  It's far too easy today to dismiss someone across the screen because I (or someone else, just using example here, nothing else is intended) don't have to care about how you react to something I say because you are not even real to me.

As a first impression coming to this game, if I was faced with that, and I was, I'd leave (and I did.)  When I came back years later it had changed somewhat only because many of the people changed out, but it still exists...  then add to that the powermongering.  Not a good mix.  Then throw in the people who sit back and watch out loud and you've got an explosive situation that isn't good for anyone.

In any case... this thread is about first impressions and observations.  the original poster had his own intent which was obscured by all of us.  Perhaps I should have left well enough alone, perhaps not.  Perhaps my zealousness for justice has gotten in the way again, or perhaps I can see how it's all interconnected to what the original poster intended.  The point is one's observation and impression of a given thing will always differ from someone else's, but first impressions can make or break.

Thanks for the healthy discussion Mythryndel.  Very cool!  (no I'm not being sarcastic.  I really do enjoy healthy discussions.)