Can someone remind me why we added such a grind to PlaneShift?

[Shaman]

Pizik, that sounds a lot better. I just hope everyone's on the same page.

[Dajoji]

This is already in-game in a way. Not sure if "peasant woman" qualifies as a "boss" but the mechanics are just as described by Pizik.

[Under the moon]

No Instance Dungeons = No Boss Mobs

I beg to differ on that point. There are many ways to make 'bosses' without having them instanced at all. In fact, I dislike the thought of instances for the simple fact that you know exactly where the 'boss' is, what its stats are, what kind of group it will take to kill it, and what l00ts it drops. They are not really bosses at all, but big, lame targets that mean nothing to the game. So what if no one goes in and wipes out the 'boss' or not?

@ Dajoji: 
Also, that can only be used for single players, not 'raid' *shudders at the term* groups.

[Prolix]

I beg to differ with the idea there are no instances in the game every creature you meet is the current instance of that object type. Not exactly the same kind of instance you all were talking about but an instance no less. You are using c++ aren't you? It seems to me that if the mobs in your area instances are being shared between all other similar instances there is something wrong with your class constructors. I never could grasp Object Oriented Programming very well though.

[Tuxide]

Not every rat in the game has the same stats, boy.

[StitchedChin]

Q:  "Can someone remind me why we added such a grind to PlaneShift?"
A:  Because misery loves company?  Gives everyone something to complain about in game and we all come together and share our pain in stories of grinding. 

It'd be an interesting test to max everyone out for a few weeks, make all glyphs available, max every skill that is useable in game, and see what everyone would do.  I thought everyone may get bored or stock up on trias, crafted weapons and pps, but who knows.

[Shaman]

Well, the ones who know why they're training to begin with would roleplay, which they don't get much chance to do when they have to train their stats up in order to DO the roleplay (according to some select people). The ones who train for the sake of training, would easily quit.

[Apnew]

Dalyo hunt just isn't as much fun or as good to RP as the old Ulber hunts used to be. It was a group activity that was both gameplay AND Roleplay. Just MHO.

[elachlan]

First, I played a game that didn't have instances. It had groups of hundreds people trying to kill a boss so that they could finish a quest. It is not feesable to have them in anything but an instanced dungeon or area. Death and RP aren't a problem as you die and come back to life all the time, so do the mobs.

[Shaman]

Dalyo hunt just isn't as much fun or as good to RP as the old Ulber hunts used to be. It was a group activity that was both gameplay AND Roleplay. Just MHO.

Like Apnew said, I think what made ulbernauts fun was just their sheer size. Grouping up to fight gladiators that not only are a race that can't wear plate armor, but are the same size as us, just doesn't make sense. You look at a dlayo and it doesn't look too intimidating, but you look at an ulbernaut and you turn around and run back the direction you came.

[Prolix]

Not every rat in the game has the same stats, boy.

So what makes them different? a different constructor or a different class? Does that make any difference they are still of class rat even if they are sub-class weak-rat or flatulent-rat. I do understand a bit about OOP and inheritance Are you trying to tell me that PS doesn't use objects? Or perhaps that it doesn't instantiate them?

Anyway getting off topic I suppose, sorry.

[zanzibar]

PS does have bosses, they just arent named. In the past Ulbers were the "Boss Mobs", most needed groups or considerable skill to kill one, but since skill caps have been raised they are no longer a concern to most and became a simple mob to be killed. Dlayo was the replacement  "Boss Mob" I believe, and im not sure if these are being farmed as much as Ulbers were, maybe its because they are faster and grouping to kill doesnt work as well.

I remember the days when I would gather people at Harnquist until we had a party of 10-15 players (or more!) then we would head out to the ruins.  Several of us would die along the way from fall damage.  Those who made it would encircle an ulber, then on 3 we would all attack it at once.  Of course many would die... it was very exciting and a lot of fun, and a good way to meet other players.

Now, everyone solos everything, including the Dlayos.  Why work with others when you can use hit and run tactics and keep all the loot for yourself?


For bosses:  Have a clacker near the rats, have a trepor near the clackers, have a tefusang near the trepor, have a rogue near the tefusang, and so on.  Call those bosses, and have them give extra EXP compared to other mobs of the same species.

[StitchedChin]

You have to use hit and run tactics against a Dlayo, otherwise everyone dies and dies quickly.  The mechanics just aren't there yet to fight in groups and have fun in PS without GM intervention.  It is much more fun to take 1000 hits to take down a boss and be able to take 10-15 hits yourself before you have to retreat to heal.  15 hits to take down the "boss" and only 1 to send you to the DR, gets old quickly, especially if you trekked out to BD to "hunt".  Having a range of different types of fighters is fun, too, support characters, archers, mages, etc.  Plus, you get few advantages in grouping in PS since monsters have no trouble hitting you with their back turned, even though we "have to be facing the enemy".  Plus, the loot is pretty crappy, no one wants to fight over a dagger and share 40 pps.  Killing a Dlayo on your own is fun since you've grinded for so long and feel you have accomplished something in your training.

Now when GMs do an event, the group hunt is fun because it has that sense of RP and community accomplishment, but that's a lot of work.  Though wouldn't it make PS one of a kind if it let approved players take control of monsters when they wanted and do a spur of the moment monster raid or boss roleplay...  Sure would get rid of the need to try and develop better monster AI.

[Pizik]

It seems those who took part in Ulber hunts all shared the same enjoyment I found in them, What change in the game mechanics has caused this to stop? I am guessing it would be the change in the stats, making them unbalanced so that you would need a massive amount of Heavy Armor training to even consider "Tanking" a target. With 'The Hunts' anyone could join in, maybe not physical combat, but they could always cast attacks in support of their group members. It is entirely possible im wrong, it could be that Mobs can now run, and because of the poor threat mechanics change targets too rapidly.

I'm straying too close to the "things were better when....." line of thought so maybe I should stop because im not a fan of that.

[Xanthan]

An interesting discussion, and I think a useful one.  Thanks, Zanzibar.

I have a different perspective than some, I think:  This is the only MMORPG I've played, though I play a lot of other kinds of games.  From my perspective, grinding is just silly.  It's not fun, so therefore it has no place in a game of any sort.  It seems to me that planeshift wants to have a roleplaying focus.  Levels make a certain amount of sense as game mechanics, but I don't think they need to be in conflict with this.  So.... What I'd like to see is this:

Multi-person quests that provide experience in various skills and stats, and also PP.  Right now the PP you get from most quests is the equivalent of killing a single mob.  The mechanics appear to be in place to allow advanced quests that would provide experience points that make sense for high-level characters.  That would allow a way to advance your character through role-playing rather than grinding.

Taking that further, the next thing would be multi-player quests.  Quests that required you to interact somehow with multiple other players in order to complete them.  That would require new mechanics to be supported, but it would mean that role-playing becomes built into the game and integrated with levelling, in a sense.  Ipso-factso: a game with an even greater role-playing focus, less grinding, less conflict between role-playing and power-levelling: more fun.

Perhaps this has all been thought of, of course.  The quests have improved dramatically over the two years or so I've been playing, and the faction system is presumably going to assist.  I'm hoping this is where they are going, and I really look forward to seeing it.