Can someone remind me why we added such a grind to PlaneShift?

[Adder]

To me, grinding is just another way to explore the game - when I do a quest, I do it to find out whether I can do it, if I do grinding combat skills I'll find out which mobs I can kill. Also, it feels like grinding only when it is done in a boring way.

Regarding the mobs being all the same and no bosses, when you are the right match for the thunderclacker group, you'll quickly find out that not even the clackers in this group all have the same stats, so there's already a natural kind of boss there. (My only gripe with thunderclackers is that the group is too small - the animal book says they live in larger groups.)

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

On the fundamental level little has changed to make ps more of a grind. We gave the possibility to train your skill levels higher and placed more glyphs that had already been designed in the game. We have actually lowered the cost of training twice in the last year.

[zanzibar]

On the fundamental level little has changed to make ps more of a grind. We gave the possibility to train your skill levels higher and placed more glyphs that had already been designed in the game. We have actually lowered the cost of training twice in the last year.

I'm probably remembering back to before you were introduced to the game.  It used to be that every level required the same investment in terms of progression points and trias (and possibly experience / executions of the relevant action, I don't remember).  It was changed so that every level costs exponentially more, without there being an exponentially greater benefit.

If I advanced one level in red way every day, I'd max it out after 4 months.  However it's going to cost more and more as I get higher in rank, and it already takes around 7,000 trias (which I get by camping gladiators in the arena without using magic), then I sit around and cast flaming weapons repeatedly (which I do using a hot key).  And it takes more and more practice to advance as you gain levels.  So really it might take twice that long.

[Prolix]

You might find it a little more reasonable to camp the rogues in there using your magic, at least you will not be wasting your mana completely. Perhaps the rewards are not great enough, I cannot fight the tank glads very well myself but the rogues are just fodder.

[khoridor]

It was changed so that every level costs exponentially more, without there being an exponentially greater benefit.

Well that makes sense, doesn't it?
Getting better and better at something takes time while not making you significantly better, whereas beginners become significantly better in a short time. Ideally, time should be the relevant issue, so that caps would not even be needed anymore. The tria issue is very different: paying for trainers is a very 21th century western concept, and even then, having to pay more and more for higher levels can't make sense. There would surely be more immersive ways of learning from teachers, none of them easy to design and implement.

Why not "join" a master for a while, past the beginner stage? Only one master at a time, or a pre-determined group of masters with complementary skills in certain cases (like the Arena). That way one doesn't grind in all skills at once? And learning would not be achieved by clicking and spending, but by interacting with the master (dialogs, quests, practice in his vicinity). Even getting accepted by a master shouldn't be easy (specially when there will be several concurrent teachers in the game). Some masters can ask for money, others for something else, or for nothing but spirit. There could be a mention on the students' name tags, such as "Trasok's apprentice", so that they recognise each other. For learning, instead of spending tria, one clicks and a progression bar appears. It takes X minutes to reach 100%, more or less according to Intelligence. And it is interruptible. It would be even better if learning and practice were intertwined.

But do grinding people want a more immersive grinding?

[Xanthan]

Iḿ quite fascinated by the responses here.  Do people actually enjoy the grind?  If so, please tell me why.  If not, why do we have it in the game at all?

[zanzibar]

It was changed so that every level costs exponentially more, without there being an exponentially greater benefit.

Well that makes sense, doesn't it?
Getting better and better at something takes time while not making you significantly better, whereas beginners become significantly better in a short time. Ideally, time should be the relevant issue, so that caps would not even be needed anymore. The tria issue is very different: paying for trainers is a very 21th century western concept, and even then, having to pay more and more for higher levels can't make sense. There would surely be more immersive ways of learning from teachers, none of them easy to design and implement.

Why not "join" a master for a while, past the beginner stage? Only one master at a time, or a pre-determined group of masters with complementary skills in certain cases (like the Arena). That way one doesn't grind in all skills at once? And learning would not be achieved by clicking and spending, but by interacting with the master (dialogs, quests, practice in his vicinity). Even getting accepted by a master shouldn't be easy (specially when there will be several concurrent teachers in the game). Some masters can ask for money, others for something else, or for nothing but spirit. There could be a mention on the students' name tags, such as "Trasok's apprentice", so that they recognise each other. For learning, instead of spending tria, one clicks and a progression bar appears. It takes X minutes to reach 100%, more or less according to Intelligence. And it is interruptible. It would be even better if learning and practice were intertwined.

But do grinding people want a more immersive grinding?

It's more of a 16th century concept than a 20th one.  Although you could go back as far as ancient Greece.

Iḿ quite fascinated by the responses here.  Do people actually enjoy the grind?  If so, please tell me why.  If not, why do we have it in the game at all?

I think it's there because other games have it.

[Lanarel]

If would be very easy to gain levels in whatever skill you want, everyone would be an expert in crafting all weapons, all magic ways, and be as strong as possible. No need to interact with anyone if you can make the weapons you need yourself, kill all anumals yourself, find all the materials you need. Making it more time consuming makes sure that most players will not be able to be masters of all crafts. Someone grinding a little a year long may become the smith everyone buys his/her weapons from.
Of course there are those that just skip the interaction and grind all day for a few months and still are master of all. However, they do not get into play for those who prefer to buy from someone who is a smith, as the powerlevelers will not have time to interact anyway
I guess the solution is to do not have the grind, and still make it impossible to master everything. That means changing the whole skills/training system. I have seen some ideas for that in the forum before, so maybe one day that will change.

[Coneitic]

Every mmo's main goal is to keep people playing as long as they can, Grinding is just the generic way to approach this.


and you thought it was different...

[verden]

Or just stop treating stats like skills. Problem solved.

[zanzibar]

If would be very easy to gain levels in whatever skill you want, everyone would be an expert in crafting all weapons, all magic ways, and be as strong as possible.

Unless you make it so that you can only have X proficiency in Y skills.

Besides, that's already the way things are.  You need to be an excellent fighter to do anything else.  Then you become an excellent miner in order to make money.  Some people bother with magic, others don't.  A lot of people do crafting.

Or just stop treating stats like skills. Problem solved.

We're talking about skills.  Skills have stats.

[Gravemind]

I think the grinding is perfect as it is. It should be very difficult and time consuming to max skills, because that's the way it would be if the game were real (see my post in the RP Covenant thread)

There is no reason grinding should be considered OOC or non-RP friendly. If someone wants to RP their character who is so focused on gaining power to the point where they exclude themselves from all social interaction, that is perfectly suitable.

[Xanthan]

It should be very difficult and time consuming to max skills, because that's the way it would be if the game were real (see my post in the RP Covenant thread)

There is no reason grinding should be considered OOC or non-RP friendly. If someone wants to RP their character who is so focused on gaining power to the point where they exclude themselves from all social interaction, that is perfectly suitable.

Perhaps, but it´s NOT real, it´s a game.  Games are above all else supposed to be fun.  I´m not saying it shouldn´t be difficult and time consuming to level up:  I just think there should be a fun way to do it.  I also think you should be able to do it through role-playing, not only laborious mechanics.  That´s why I suggested advanced and multi-player quests for this in my previous post.  I guess I´m alone on this one, but I really would like to know what people think of this idea.

To say more about it, here´s a possible example.

Player 1 to NPC:  I need a quest
NPC: (checks that the player has a certain amount of factions and skills, then):  Thank the gods you´ve arrived.  The upper guard chamber has been sucked into a mysterious dark vortex.  Help us find out what it is and stop it.
Player 1 asks around and another NPC tells him what it is and that it can be stopped by several high-level crystal mages working together.  Maybe they have to do some other quests to get particular glyphs and spells or whatever.
Players 2-4, being checked for particular factions, stats, etc. join the quest.  (This could be done now I think, by simply giving player 1 a bunch of quest items to hand out to the other players.  They could perhaps get a different, connected quest if they have that item.)
Players do whatever they need to, and present their proof to the NPC(s). All the players now get a reward, possibly including: enough money and PP to actually level up by one when you have a high level, OR a level increase in something particular.

Since low level-characters wouldn´t get the quest, you don´t need to worry about giving them a disproportionately large amount of money or PP.  Basically, the reward scales with the level of the character, not like now.  The multi-player aspect means you have to role-play, and provides a great storyline and pretext for doing so.

[zanzibar]

I think the grinding is perfect as it is. It should be very difficult and time consuming to max skills, because that's the way it would be if the game were real (see my post in the RP Covenant thread)

There is no reason grinding should be considered OOC or non-RP friendly. If someone wants to RP their character who is so focused on gaining power to the point where they exclude themselves from all social interaction, that is perfectly suitable.

I guess it depends on what kind of game you want.

Maybe we can have different servers for two different versions of the game?  One server can be dedicated to extreme grinding.  The other server can be the opposite, allowing players to max their characters within perhaps just a single day.

[Tuxide]

I think the grinding is perfect as it is. It should be very difficult and time consuming to max skills, because that's the way it would be if the game were real (see my post in the RP Covenant thread)

There is no reason grinding should be considered OOC or non-RP friendly. If someone wants to RP their character who is so focused on gaining power to the point where they exclude themselves from all social interaction, that is perfectly suitable.

I'm not saying I'm for or against what you say, but if everyone did this then there will be no endgame.  Once you are done "gaining power" there's really nothing to do with it because then everyone else will be busy "gaining power".