PVP rogue area.

[Raekh]

Once it was stated a trip through the Death Realm was a horrible one, one to leave its marks - given the one was lucky enough to find an exit at all, which was meant to be rare.
How is it now? Death Realm trip a joke again?
Okay, was a retorical question..

But I might agree. Pens can be utilized to move masses up against the government, cause hate and distrust towards the rulers among the common citizens, while rogues fighting guards with swords my cause some victims, but will be defeated sooner or later anyway, without leaving an heir.

However, criminals fighting each other - shouldnt they fight a common enemy, instead of decimating their own numbers?
I dare to provoke, saying criminals fighting each other are either plain stupid or entirely unorganized tramps 
So: let those tramps kill each other in distance to the more organized criminals that managed to set up a camp, move it around on a weekly basis, and keep it up living.

[Nikodemus]

Since pvp is kinda more like a joke than some real experience (IMO because characters don't use their skills to parry and defend themselves and Hit Points aren't representing this)
There could be no pvp for me at all.
Combat is simply incomplete.

[Orgonwukh]

All the poets got ganked, it is the same reason why 90% of people don't make it through the tutorial.

Poetry is dead, pvp killed it.

Now rp will kill pvp, then where will we be?

Literacy is for oldbies, long live the n00b!!

* Xillix Queen of Fools eats the n00b.

maybe it isn't pvp but ooc that killed literacy, that killed the pvp area, that killed poetry, but i dunno we swallowed the rp! I think we'll grind. . .

Concluding: You claim that RP and PVP are mutually exclusive?
I try to prove the contrary everyday. Until now it requires OOC agreements between the two sides in a violent conflict. I'd love to see a solution which enables RP and PvP by game mechanics. And I already made feature requests for that. But at the moment we lack this sort of support, so I think we should just remove the source for troubles.

[zanzibar]

You claim that RP and PVP are mutually exclusive?

The way it is now, yes.  Before a year ago and likely after as well, we had a really bad problem with people challenging other players in the plaza, then shouting things like "Coward!" at them if the duel challenge was declined.  Some players were worse for it than others.  Some players would even get their guilds involved, so that if you declined a challenge, you would suddenly have ten or more people shouting insults at you and saying mean things through /tell.

PVP in the most general sense is within the sphere of RP, so long as there are realistic consequences and in-character motivations.  But we have neither IC motivations nor realistic consequences.

[khoridor]

PvP and RP are absolutely not exclusive.
The /challenge tool is not perfect, and has no RP protocol clearly associated with it. But players can deal with it, and achieve what they intended to achieve.
A PvP zone is a different issue, as it is apparently much more difficult to achieve RP there. It's supposed to provide danger and tension, but seems to provide mostly childish bullying (if I understand correctly).
I still think it should stay because:
- it can serve as a test field for improving the open PvP system.
- since nobody is actually banned from towns, nobody is forced to go there. No RP is really impaired; no craft is impossible; only some quest are made troublesome.
I'd prefer suggestions to make things work rather than simply giving up.

[playbetter]

No RP reason?

How am I supposed to play a char. that has little fear of danger and runs into trouble without thinking if there is no danger?

How are the bullies supposed to RP their bullying without being able to bully? (Yes there are bullies everywhere)

How are those that want to RP protecting the innocent if there is nothing to protect?

What are the Sheeples for if not to bully? I guess there is no reason for them either? Lets ban them too!!!!


Maybe an OOC warning could be added to the tutorial for newbs, so they know the danger.

Leave the PvP there and later expand to the roads so caravan attacks, etc. can happen. Without that it is like the bandits asking permission to rob. Seems kind of silly to me. Just like testing strength of monsters, YES it will kill a few newbs..... Until they learn how to deal with it. Does that mean there are going to be 85 bandits gathered at every PvP location all the time? No. It will still be safe.....Most of the time.

If PvP areas on the road are a concern make safe walking passages with guards or something. Force the caravans with wagons or whatever means of carrying use the unsafe passages due to terrain and not being able to use the "safe passages" and mark them as such. Caravans are not likely to be populated with a bunch of newbs that don't know what they are getting into, but more experienced people to RP some kind of event. Advertised or not.

[zanzibar]

There are bullies in the world.

They get dealt with.

With the duel spammers, they would always talk about "respect" and "honour".  It was a very thug-like mentality.  I believe that people were doing this, not for IC reasons, but because they enjoyed having power over others.

"Boom, Headshot!"

I don't have patience for it.  It doesn't belong here.

[Vannaka]

There are bullies in the world.

They get dealt with.

With the duel spammers, they would always talk about "respect" and "honour".  It was a very thug-like mentality.  I believe that people were doing this, not for IC reasons, but because they enjoyed having power over others.

"Boom, Headshot!"

I don't have patience for it.  It doesn't belong here.

I do agree with you in part, in many circumstances you are completely right.  But to be fair, I'd also like to point out that some of the people who complain about "duel spammers" will roleplay their character to insult and provoke others, and then decline challenges as if it would be OOC to attack such a person.

[zanzibar]

There are bullies in the world.

They get dealt with.

With the duel spammers, they would always talk about "respect" and "honour".  It was a very thug-like mentality.  I believe that people were doing this, not for IC reasons, but because they enjoyed having power over others.

"Boom, Headshot!"

I don't have patience for it.  It doesn't belong here.

I do agree with you in part, in many circumstances you are completely right.  But to be fair, I'd also like to point out that some of the people who complain about "duel spammers" will roleplay their character to insult and provoke others, and then decline challenges as if it would be OOC to attack such a person.

Here's an example.  I asked someone if she was a member of an underground thieves guild.  She took it as an insult and sent a /tell to her real life boyfriend.  He came to me from somewhere else in the game world, roleplayed spitting in my face, shouted insults at me, and sent me a challenge.  I armed myself, accepted the challenge, and stood in place.  He rushed at me and died.  Minutes later, he returned from the death realm, roleplayed spitting in my face again, shouted more insults at me and accused me of being a cheater for not accepting the challenge right away (while I was unarmed and inside the tavern), then left.

[zanzibar]

Another example:  I backstabbed someone in a PVP zone while he was waiting for a gladiator to spawn.  He sent me a /tell saying that I was in trouble because his guild leader was a GM.  He then found me with two of his guildmates backing him up.  They all duel challenged me at the same time.

Another example:  I was standing in the plaza and someone I didn't know challenged me to a duel.  We went down to the fountain.  As soon as I accepted it, the other player ran away and starting shooting arrows at me from afar.  I later found out that player's guild leader disliked me OOCly.

Another example:  Back when there was only a single NPC that dropped weapons, it was a well guarded secret, and a well camped spawn.  There was a group there ahead of me who were all from the same guild.  I wanted to have a turn at the monster.  They all challenged me.  I declined.  So they called in a GM.  When one GM told them I was allowed to stay, they called in a different one.


Duels can and often do enrich the roleplay experience, but it's far more often that the feature is abused.

[Raekh]

The way you describe it that one was perfectly one of that "boom-headshot" fraction (decent description). Seeking for action on their screen. They dont care about settings or roleplaying, perhaps they dont even know about it, and for a moment they spoil my fun trying to roleplay - then I usually just set them on ignore (temporary, like I do most of the time).
I try to level up my char for backing up claims, and meanwhile I tend to duel instead of text-fighting. In fact this can be arranged well with roleplaying.
What I cant see is, why is a PvP-area required at all, if people are meant to have fun and play in agreement _with_ each other. People play their chars roles, they want them to fight each other, so they do. PvP-areas are for attacking others without them having the chance to agree or disagree. If people would stick to the idea of a roleplaying game, why was there a system that allows to act against other people's will? To me this is merely an action-feature to attract people not caring about roleplaying.

Point is, PlaneShift is a game either for roleplayers _and_ for "headshot-people", everyone is welcomed equally. PlaneShift is _not_ a real roleplaying game. I for one am not pleased about this at all expecting a roleplaying game, and I think its a shame, since I am convinced it drives away roleplayers, but at the end I cant but have to live with it.

[magicollie]

i reckon people should know what to expect and learn to work out if they have a chance or not

[playbetter]

Yes I agree the system needs work. That was not the point of what I said. There will be abuses and those abuses need to be dealt with. Whether it is abusing PvP, or GM shopping, for one that is friendly to your cause, or whatever. If you are going to call PvP a failure because of problems and glitches and abuse then lets forget trying to work out this system all together and just cancel Plane Shift.

OR maybe we can work together to find a solution, like we have been trying to do on the rest of the game.

Maybe warnings to Newbs. Maybe better marked "safe paths" with guards. Maybe better signage for the area. (I admit I don't usually look at the signs)

I for one do not like to have a 5 hour planning session for a few minutes of game time. I don't want to sit around trying to contact everyone that may be involved in an incident and plan it ahead of time. I would rather just get into the game and see what develops. Kind of like RL. And without PvP areas that becomes more difficult.

Lets talk about ways to fix this rather than give up.

[Raekh]

If you are going to call PvP a failure because of problems and glitches and abuse then lets forget trying to work out this system all together and just cancel Plane Shift.

Sounds almost like implying PlaneShift's core concept was PvPing.

I for one do not like to have a 5 hour planning session for a few minutes of game time. I don't want to sit around trying to contact everyone that may be involved in an incident and plan it ahead of time. I would rather just get into the game and see what develops. Kind of like RL. And without PvP areas that becomes more difficult.

To me this assertion flaws. On one hand, gathering trias, PP and the training itself takes at least as much time as summed up "planning sessions".
Furthermore, you really are seriously telling having a vague idea about what are you going to do with your char ingame within in the next few minutes takes you several of hours?
No one says roleplaying requires some strict plan to follow. Some do because they like it to set up plans, and some just go all spontaneous according to their chars, without giving many thoughts on whats up next.

Since this subject is based on that ancient conflict "PLers - RPers", why not going for a trade-off such as moving the PvP-zone a bit off the Camp, since it seems obvious that duellers render that place, which was meant to have a Settings-purpose, useless. That way duellers can have their fun fighting each other and bring the mechanics to its limits, while still are close to that "outlawish environment", and the same time roleplayers could immerse into the Setting.
At least until the fighting system got improved.

[playbetter]

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Furthermore, you really are seriously telling having a vague idea about what are you going to do with your char ingame within in the next few minutes takes you several of hours?
No one says roleplaying requires some strict plan to follow. Some do because they like it to set up plans, and some just go all spontaneous according to their chars, without giving many thoughts on whats up next.

What I am saying is not like going to sit in a tavern to RP but a larger event. Something like the caravan robbery mentioned in another thread. I have spent several hours trying to get people together for an event and ran out of time before I could organize it. Another example is the work Mouli (kudos to him for the work he is putting into it) is putting into the tournament. hours of hashing out rules and making a chart that has to be updated all for 19 30 second fights to see who is best fighter. A lot of work for 10 minutes and trying to get 20 people together.

Quote

Since this subject is based on that ancient conflict "PLers - RPers", why not going for a trade-off such as moving the PvP-zone a bit off the Camp, since it seems obvious that duellers render that place, which was meant to have a Settings-purpose, useless. That way duellers can have their fun fighting each other and bring the mechanics to its limits, while still are close to that "outlawish environment", and the same time roleplayers could immerse into the Setting.
At least until the fighting system got improved.

Ok. You kind of caught me there. I started Plane Shift as my first computer based RP game not sure what to expect. I did a bunch of RP at first and decided I would not RP something my char. is not capable of doing, so I began to level. In that way I found out that leveling can also be fun. At least some of the time.

I agree that we should be trying to improve the game and would support moving the PvP area if it could help. A suggestion for that and IC reason would be if there is a "Rogue training area" somewhere near the camp marked out with stakes or lines or something making a small arena area that that lawless could use without going through the city. I am not against Improving the game and helping players, I am against throwing out an idea that has implications for the roleplay and economy of the game.