"We can't fix that yet, it would be too difficult."

[zanzibar]

There are certain things about the game that are in desperate need to be completely redone.  The progression point / training system is a great example.  The character generator might be another.  Everyone - everyone! - seems to agree that some of these things need to be remade, perhaps from scratch.  The consensus is so strong that I was actually expecting a wipe and a new progression system to accompany Steel Blue.

The thing is, there seems to be another consensus:  That changing the progression system is too complicated, too hard, too time intensive.  The system is so integrated into the game that redoing it would be a monstrous task.

Here's the problem as I see it:

1.  It needs to be changed eventually.

2.  The long we wait, the harder it will be.

[Caarrie]

it will be become hard to redo as time goes on. it might become easier do to other fixes. also just because "we" dont have time now does not mean it will never be done, the dev team does have a list of things that have to be done for each release and once talad approves a redo of a system like magic it will get done, we also need devs to have time and the SKILLS to do a redo.

[zanzibar]

Didn't Xordan write the progression system?

[Caarrie]

Didn't Xordan write the progression system?

what do you mean? xordan has ideas last i heard but i dont think he wrote what we have right now, and to redo it might mean a wipe might be needed to make sure all are on the new system as it might remove exp and pp as we have it now.

[zanzibar]

A wipe goes without saying and shouldn't be an obstacle.  If a wipe is the price to pay for improvements where they are most needed, isn't it a small price to pay?

[Lanarel]

First you would need a better system. And with latest responses in mind, to what the devs did to make things better, I can imagine they are a bit reluctant to propose any changes. THere will never be a system that everyone thinks is perfect. The way even the tiniest minority would react to the slightest flaw simply is not a rewarding thing for the people putting so much of there free time in it.

[zanzibar]

First you would need a better system. And with latest responses in mind, to what the devs did to make things better, I can imagine they are a bit reluctant to propose any changes. THere will never be a system that everyone thinks is perfect. The way even the tiniest minority would react to the slightest flaw simply is not a rewarding thing for the people putting so much of there free time in it.

In terms of the progression system, I don't think we're talking about tiny flaws.  Other systems are similar although not as bad.  This is just common sense to anyone familiar with the game.

[Mythryndel]

How many more topics of similar nature are you going to start? Yes, there are issues with things in-game. Yes, they will be fixed. Starting a thread about it isn't going to change the development cycle or the number of developers working on any particular task. I also don't know where you get this huge consensus about the current training system being supremely flawed.

I don't completely understand why PPs are needed, but as for the rest of it... I think it is rather nice compared to many other systems I am familiar with. I like having to USE my skills before I can say I know how to do things. Other systems allow you to completely retrain your skillset for any number of reasons... so you could have been a swordsman for 50 levels... but on a whim you want to forget about being a swordsman and use a polearm instead... ok. Talk about unrealistic.

Also, a wipe being a "small price to pay"... you are really out of touch with most of the players if you think this would go over well right now.

[zanzibar]

How many more topics of similar nature are you going to start?

  This post is on a very specific topic, and I don't know what other threads you're referring to.

I also don't know where you get this huge consensus about the current training system being supremely flawed.

If you don't think it's flawed, you're disagreeing with a large number of developers.

Also, a wipe being a "small price to pay"... you are really out of touch with most of the players if you think this would go over well right now.

There have been wipes in the past.  There will be wipes in the future.  If we get a better, more enjoyable PlaneShift, and all it takes is a wipe, I'd trade in an instant.


Mythryndel, you're very  , so don't post to this thread any longer.  Instead, PM me or start a new thread on whatever it is that's bothering you.

[Oomi]

#NOTE - we don't need a 50th wipe thread. Let's keep this thread from going there.

I think Mythryndel is very on topic. Drastic changes like a total rework of of the progression system have a huge impact on current players and it's only courteous of us to tread carefully and slowly regarding such changes.

That being said, some far-off day there will be a wipe and to my fevered brain those who are the most uncomfortable with the idea are the very ones who are best equipped to move forward from it. These folks fall into three general groups. First group -  hardcore RPers who have the talent to create innovative & lore-compliant (ain't that a fancy term?) chars in a heartbeat and will be the vanguard for the repopulation of a fresh PS world. Second group - grinders who will help ensure that the balance of combat & levelling that we strive for is on target and fair for all. Third group - the crafters who are the lifeblood of an economy that is not tied to NPCs (and an overlooked group in general IMHO). I have the utmost faith that every single one of you in each of these groups would rise to the challenge of a wipe and help grow this wonderful world.

HOWEVER - we aren't there yet. PERSONALLY, I am a tidy freak and would be all for a wipe, since a clean database is a happy database that can more easily expose issues & bugs. But this isn't about me and my OCD. This is about an entire community, and believe it or not, the community is a factor in decisions such as this. So, the best thing that the players can do is observe imbalance in the current system and report it in the bugtracker or find a forum thread that fits the case & add your own 2 cents.

[zanzibar]

I don't think Mythryndel was very on topic.  I know things will be fixed in time.  He's wrong about the progression system not being flawed, but that's not the topic of the thread.  He's wrong about wipes not being a part of any game which is in development, but this thread isn't about wipes.  Will everyone like a wipe?  Heck no.  But it's just a fact of life if you're going to play(test) the game, and arguing about it does nothing but encourage flame wars.  Besides, maybe a few money and skill wipes in a row will help scare away the Runescape crowd.

Will everything be fixed in time?  Sure.  But everyone I talk to says that the big things need to be put off because they're too big to take on.  If these things are so big, why not make them the number 1 priority?  That's the topic I intended, not the stuff Mythryndel went on about.

[Cigile]

Hello

Can you just explain what is wrong with the Progression points/training ?

Yes some skills like Crafting are too hard  to train but i think the system is good :

And please stop talking about "wipe" make do you have to do but dont tell us you will wipe us !! Just do it ! Wipe us ! but please make you sure system will work after.... not a wipe just experimental please

[verden]

I agree totally, the bigger it is, the sooner it should be worked on. And I would love to see the database wiped. Reworking the progression system will lead directly to the reworking of other systems, such as character stats and skills, combat and then right into magic. It would reinforce the community and I think, reinvigorate it. Sure, it would be stormy and contentious... but what isn't around here?

[Rizin]

...[snipped for easier reading]... Will everything be fixed in time?  Sure.  But everyone I talk to says that the big things need to be put off because they're too big to take on.  If these things are so big, why not make them the number 1 priority?  That's the topic I intended, not the stuff Mythryndel went on about.

There is no time table as to when things will be done as there a lot of factors that are taken into consideration for large changes and a lot of little things that need to be done for those large changes to be addressed properly. We make a plan, we work towards it, we adjust as necessary.

Considering it sounds as if you just want to state a point of view and share your thoughts, which you have done I consider this topic closed. We all desire to see things progress quickly, but we work as fast as we can and we work hard. Your commentary is appreciated.  Also keep in mind though, that there are numerous threads discounting the current system and suggesting new approaches.

Locking.

@Zanzibar - You're welcome to PM me if you have questions.