Death of an Atheist

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

one day advancing in one may well mean diminishing in all others . . .

Didn't you all want a ROLE to play . . .

Didn't you want to have a say in how the world advanced . . .

I know arerano and ligh sure as heck have an opinion . . .

Divorcing mechanics and faith isn't the direction Settings embraces at all.

Don't you want choices that matter? In quests? In roleplays?

Alas, always support the status quo, it's so safe, so comfortable.

Count your beans, file your taxes, the gods have larger matters to attend.

[Nilise]

how can i find out the religion of my character? I hit the "Quick" button and started with an empty character description...

[Parallo]

Search within thyself, child.

[zanzibar]

Weird.  I had thought I had replied to Xillix's well-worded post already.

The role of the non-worshiper is still a role, and characters can still worship gods even if others do not.  The settings would have to be adjusted in order for religion to not be experienced through the mechanics of the game (by perma-death etc), but the settings are in development along with the rest of the game.  Players do want choices, and allowing non-worship would actually increase the variety of choices players can make in making their characters.

Alas, always support the status quo, it's so safe, so comfortable.

I'm confused.  I think people are pushing for changes.  The status quo means no change.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

We allow non worship now, how is that change?

(your post was deleted through efforts to remove the double post)

Even if mechanics support permadeath for atheists one can still roleplay an atheist . . . Just not for long.

[Dajoji]

how can i find out the religion of my character? I hit the "Quick" button and started with an empty character description...

Religion is a choice you can make in character creation or once in-game. The important thing is to be consistent so your RP benefits from it. You as a player should think about which deity your character would worship and follow the guidelines of each religion. You can read them in character creation. If you picked a religion in CC, and you change your mind, you can pick a new one in-game but stick to it once you do this.

[zanzibar]

We allow non worship now, how is that change?

You do but you don't.  It's written into the settings that non worshipers are fools, objects of pity, condemned, anti-social, irrational, individualist, and more.  Since everyone has to abide by the settings, it means that if you want to be a non worshiper, you must also be everything I listed.

It's not just a matter of societal values either, since the settings are absolutist in their wordings:  "The atheist does not look outside itself for truth" etcetera.

Having non worshiping characters suffer perma-death should they die is also a way of effectively banning non worship, since pretty much every character will die at some point unless they break the law by not training in weapons.

These are the settings, and the mechanics will catch up eventually.  So the change would be a more lenient attitude towards non worshiping characters through a change in the fundamentals of the game (the settings being fundamental).

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

For each religion we present some options for the types of people who might follow that (dis?)belief structure, one might follow it for these reasons or another, these are just examples.

Permadeath isn't a ban it isn't even a discouragement. Permadeath for atheists makes atheism rarer, sure, but that's sort of the goal. How many of UTM or other people's roleplaying oriented characters have never been in the death realm?

The settings principle at play here is that it is divine intervention (for an as yet unknown reason) that allows people to beat death.

Even the fact that players can escape death is kind of a great argument against atheism in the world of planeshift.

Magic is real, given by the gods, and gods certainly touch the mortal world at least once a generation.

[Kieve]

Why should the Gods look kindly on those who ignore them?
Why should Settings?
For that matter, why do (some) players think they should be coddled even when they die? ->Re: all the "Death is too hard!" / "Ditch the death penalty!" threads.

Anyone remember 16-bit games? NES, Genesis, heck, even up to the PS1 and N64, I think. Adventure and action games had a set number of lives, usually. You die, you are [dead]. Maybe you are good and earn an "extra life" or a "continue." To survive, continue, you are either very careful or very good or both.
Somewhere along the line, that changed. You died? Aww too bad, we'll just respawn you at the nearest checkpoint, with a 15-sec invincibility. Infinitely.

Or more to the RP flavor, table-top RPGs. What happens when you die [then]? Typically, unless you've got yourself a conveniently located cleric or some resurrection sources handy, that's it. Character is dead, make a new one. Rejoin the party at the DM's will.

My point is, games both digital and non (and PS draws from both, it seems) have a long history of making you suffer the consequences of mortality. Yet somehow, because of the fairly recent trend of infinite lives/respawns, players are under the impression that death is a minor setback, a nuisance. THIS IS WRONG.

Be grateful that death is not the end for you all.
Just those who choose to ignore the gods.

[zanzibar]

Permadeath isn't a ban it isn't even a discouragement. Permadeath for atheists makes atheism rarer, sure, but that's sort of the goal. How many of UTM or other people's roleplaying oriented characters have never been in the death realm?

What if you want to roleplay a fighter?  More to the point, why pick on atheists for permadeath?  Non-roleplayers will simply adopt a pet god in order to escape permadeath, so targeting atheists for permadeath will do little to foster a better roleplaying environment.

The settings principle at play here is that it is divine intervention (for an as yet unknown reason) that allows people to beat death.

The mechanics are subject to settings principles, but the settings are subject to design principles.

Wasn't the divine intervention bit introduced to discourage non worship?  I feel like we're confusing the cause and the effect. 

Even the fact that players can escape death is kind of a great argument against atheism in the world of planeshift.

No, I don't think so.  PS Atheists believe in the gods, they just don't worship them.  Even then, escaping death is proof for magic more than proof for gods.

Magic is real, given by the gods, and gods certainly touch the mortal world at least once a generation.

May I ask how that connects to the discussion?

Why should the Gods look kindly on those who ignore them?

It depends.  If the gods are all petty, mean, and shallow, then you might have a point.

For that matter, why do (some) players think they should be coddled even when they die? ->Re: all the "Death is too hard!" / "Ditch the death penalty!" threads.

I think people just want the game to be fun, and different players have different expectations for the game.  There are also technical issues with the death realm connected to visibility and movement.

Anyone remember 16-bit games? NES, Genesis, heck, even up to the PS1 and N64, I think. Adventure and action games had a set number of lives, usually. You die, you are [dead]. Maybe you are good and earn an "extra life" or a "continue." To survive, continue, you are either very careful or very good or both.
Somewhere along the line, that changed. You died? Aww too bad, we'll just respawn you at the nearest checkpoint, with a 15-sec invincibility. Infinitely.

Absolutely!  But why target non worshipers?

My point is, games both digital and non (and PS draws from both, it seems) have a long history of making you suffer the consequences of mortality. Yet somehow, because of the fairly recent trend of infinite lives/respawns, players are under the impression that death is a minor setback, a nuisance. THIS IS WRONG.

I think the effort and history that goes into a PlaneShift character makes it a different thing.  When Mario dies, you just restart the game.  That's not how it works here.  When a high impact character permanently leaves the game, his or her absence is felt.

[Prolix]

Maybe you should just make perma-death a function of character time spent in game and alter that length by doing favors for the gods, either through game mechanics or gm event participation.
It would not even need to be specific open events where everyone has the chance to participate. The petition system could be adapted for prayers to the gods and the gods demands for the petitioner. A standard set of tasks could be developed to semi-automate this or in some instances the gm responding to the petition could be creative.

In this way the gods could have their presence felt without actually having to appear in person. Atheists could petition whichever god they like but their tasks would be more arduous and the rewards smaller. Of course this would requires some way to track current beliefs and it is the programmatic lack of this which is the main problem with the whole religion business.

[zanzibar]

Maybe you should just make perma-death a function of character time spent in game and alter that length by doing favors for the gods, either through game mechanics or gm event participation.

This is a powerleveling solution.  When you make roleplaying something that you can powerlevel or farm, powerlevelers will just powerlevel or farm it.  Roleplay will suffer as a result since the majority of people roleplaying will have no interest in roleplaying apart from the rewards such as items etc.

In this way the gods could have their presence felt without actually having to appear in person.

There are buildings and books and orders and histories that make the presence of the gods felt.

[Arerano]

Maybe you should just make perma-death a function of character time spent in game and alter that length by doing favors for the gods, either through game mechanics or gm event participation.

This is a powerleveling solution.  When you make roleplaying something that you can powerlevel or farm, powerlevelers will just powerlevel or farm it.  Roleplay will suffer as a result since the majority of people roleplaying will have no interest in roleplaying apart from the rewards such as items etc.

Time spent online - time spent training = time definitely not spent for praying.
 

[Prolix]

Ah so you think that role players should be able to independently decide what happens to their characters and game considerations should not affect them? Forgive me if I am wrong but that sounds to me like what you are saying Zanzibar

Arerano so your training gets done in endeavours mandated by the gods, you gain credit for practice and credit for your soul at the same time. Where is the problem with that?

[zanzibar]

Forgive me if I am wrong but that sounds to me like what you are saying Zanzibar

I forgive you. 

Arerano so your training gets done in endeavours mandated by the gods, you gain credit for practice and credit for your soul at the same time. Where is the problem with that?

It depends on what kind of game you want PlaneShift to be.