Death of an Atheist

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

I won't respond point by point quoting you, as I have said in the past people can read and follow an argument without the argument being quoted point by point.

If an atheist wants to play a fighter good for them perhaps they'll be the best in the world because they actually fear death. Atheists aren't being picked on at all. Quite the contrary, they are being left alone.

The game is a marriage of mechanics and settings. "We" aren't confusing anything. Divine intervention is the cause of survival, atheists get only what they earn from the gods, in this case nothing.

The fact that gods require worship to grant passage through the realm of death is a great argument against atheism, atheists going poof when they die is a testament to the wrongheadedness of irreligious attitudes in PS. Ps gods believe in atheists, they simply reciprocate: nothing for nothing.

It is pretty clear to me that magic and the palpable presence of the gods enters into the discussion for this reason: People bringing their earthly attitudes about faith into the game is OOC. Most of the arguments against what is perceived as a radical shift in how atheists are treated are entirely otherworldly in the context of planeshift. Diaboli and Klyros notwithstanding. Diaboli shy away from religions with hierarchical structures not faith itself. Klyros refuse to be forced to worship a specific god.

The gods are neither petty mean or shallow (as a whole, though in fact specific gods may be), only an atheist would think so or argue in this way. They are transactional.

I am open to the discussion but I am not being convinced in the slightest to alter my view as of yet.

[zanzibar]

I won't respond point by point quoting you, as I have said in the past people can read and follow an argument without the argument being quoted point by point.

Sorry, it's a habit of mine.  I've often been requested by people to quote the exact text I'm responding to.  It helps me organize my posts so I'll keep on doing it if that's ok.

If an atheist wants to play a fighter good for them perhaps they'll be the best in the world because they actually fear death.

It's not that an atheist would want to play a fighter -- it's that a player would want to play an atheist.  The player may very well be a theist.

Atheists aren't being picked on at all. Quite the contrary, they are being left alone.

I thought you said that the perma-death and other consequences are meant to discourage atheists?  I think you said something like "Isn't that the point?"

The game is a marriage of mechanics and settings. "We" aren't confusing anything. Divine intervention is the cause of survival, atheists get only what they earn from the gods, in this case nothing.

But the settings are that way because you wrote them that way.  You can change the settings where it makes sense to do so.

The fact that gods require worship to grant passage through the realm of death is a great argument against atheism, atheists going poof when they die is a testament to the wrongheadedness of irreligious attitudes in PS. Ps gods believe in atheists, they simply reciprocate: nothing for nothing.

It's proof that non worship has dire consequences, but you called it proof in favour of the gods' existence... the existence of gods isn't in question, only whether or not any of them are worthy of worship (from the point of view of an atheist character.  Characters who follow a particular god have obviously found an answer to the question).  Still, it begs the question:  Can worship out of coercion be considered worship?  And does the roleplay environment benefit from this?

It is pretty clear to me that magic and the palpable presence of the gods enters into the discussion for this reason: People bringing their earthly attitudes about faith into the game is OOC. Most of the arguments against what is perceived as a radical shift in how atheists are treated are entirely otherworldly in the context of planeshift. Diaboli and Klyros notwithstanding. Diaboli shy away from religions with hierarchical structures not faith itself. Klyros refuse to be forced to worship a specific god.

Sure, but we're talking about the IC sense of atheism, not the OOC sense of atheism which we all agree doesn't work with the settings.  The bit on Diaboli and Klyros isn't obvious from reading the settings - a revision should be made to include that information and revise contradicting statements.

The gods are neither petty mean or shallow (as a whole, though in fact specific gods may be), only an atheist would think so or argue in this way. They are transactional.

I don't see why only an atheist would argue that way.  If you have the chance to help someone and you don't -- if you have the chance to rescue someone from death, and it would take no effort on your part, and you don't -- then that speaks of a flaw in character.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

There is no coercion, you forget, a lot of people never come back from the death realm if atheists are among them so be it.

Again fundamentally you are bringing real world sensibilities and sensations into an entirely alien world, that hurts immersion.

[zanzibar]

There is no coercion, you forget, a lot of people never come back from the death realm if atheists are among them so be it.

What word would you use instead of coercion?

Again fundamentally you are bringing real world sensibilities and sensations into an entirely alien world, that hurts immersion.

Where specifically?

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

The argument has broken down.

Ask yourself if you are arguing for the sake of it or if you see some tangible benefit to atheists in the game beyond your own secular humanism.

I wouldn't call nature taking its course the same as watching someone drown, so I don't see coercion

The entirety of your argument is based real world values and doesn't concern itself very much at all with the settings of the game.

[zanzibar]

The argument has broken down.

You made an ambiguous comment and I asked for clarification, I don't know if that's a break down.

Ask yourself if you are arguing for the sake of it or if you see some tangible benefit to atheists in the game beyond your own secular humanism.

None of my characters are atheist.

The entirety of your argument is based real world values and doesn't concern itself very much at all with the settings of the game.

Ok, this helps to clarify what you were trying to say.  You weren't talking about any specific points, you were making a blanket statement.

I've looked at the settings and I think there's room for improvement.  The real world value is my value for PlaneShift.  I want to see it improve over time and reach its potential.  Who doesn't want contradictions to be removed from the settings?

A few other things, like the gods being petty, are just observations based on the settings themselves.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

If anyone else has anything to say I am more than willing to hear your input.

Nothing said thus far has swayed my perceptions about how to proceed.

[Mythryndel]

I may have missed the response to my inquiry about religion and our characters in all the bickering about real world atheism and PS atheism... but how does mechanics know what religion I am? Is it faction? Is it a flag in a database?

Also... I stand by my point about RL intruding on PS where players want to be atheists. They hold very strong beliefs in the real world, and they are demanding those same beliefs (or lack thereof) be implemented in-game as well. This is just one of many topics where players feel that RL should qual PS... martial arts, religion, same-sex marriage, etc... Sorry... but PS != RL folks. I don't want to sound harsh per se... but as much as a handful want to cram settings down peoples throats... and demand that they stay within settings... walk the walk here people. Stop trying to take it piecemeal as it fits your personal feelings.

Why is everyone so dead set that they HAVE to play a atheist character? Why not try some creativity and play something else? You (collectively those that are posting here) seem to feel that choosing a religion limits your ability to RP... how does it do that exactly?

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Answering only the mechanics question: Right now factions are recorded, in future implementation it will be a flag in the DB that is alterable by factions. So an atheist could "find god" if they could stay alive long enough to do it

[Raekh]

Without much explanation, perhaps it can be extracted from what was posted so far:
How about merely varying the Curse according to the belief? For the way to vary it there are certainly quite some options. Without many Faction Points at all, the Curse could be at a minimum (like Newbies wouldnt have such a hard time), while chars with kinda equally shared Factions on all the gods may have the worst Curse (and as in meaningless questing, or say atheism). For chars with Factions for one certain god mainly, minimize the Curse to some degree. Variations of the Curse can be percentages of levels decreased over more or less time.
Atheists may even have levels decreased irrevocably (with the chance to level up again as usual though).

However, the main issue and problem I see is, to determine the individual belief. But maybe Faction Points can be of use here.
I am not sure though if the game's current state allows such a tough feature at this time.

Mechanically determining praying or worshipping time I think is quite useless, people would just run to the altar, hit a shorty once a day and move on doing whatever. That's nothing to do with roleplaying belief, but appears to me as just another point to "PL".

PS:

[..]but as much as a handful want to cram settings down peoples throats... and demand that they stay within settings[..]

I think if everyone would play the game PlaneShift the way it is meant to be, there was no need to "cram settings down peoples throat". To put it to an extreme: If anyone wants to play a GI using his M16, I am going to remark there are setting or will ignore the person. If anyone is coming around and claims to be the King of Yliakum, I might likely do the same. Of course there has to be some tolerance, but at the end PS has a Setting to be respected. You play the game, so play it in accordance with it.

[Parallo]

I think if everyone would play the game PlaneShift the way it is meant to be, there was no need to "cram settings down peoples throat". To put it to an extreme: If anyone wants to play a GI using his M16, I am going to remark there are setting or will ignore the person. If anyone is coming around and claims to be the King of Yliakum, I might likely do the same. Of course there has to be some tolerance, but at the end PS has a Setting to be respected. You play the game, so play it in accordance with it.

Hear, hear.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

I think myth was complaining more about people cherry-picking the settings and trying to cram their interpretations into the game whether they fit or not.

[Prolix]

Mechanically determining praying or worshipping time I think is quite useless, people would just run to the altar, hit a shorty once a day and move on doing whatever. That's nothing to do with roleplaying belief, but appears to me as just another point to "PL".

How is regurgitating npc's standard blessings, whatever they are ... "light your path" ... via shortcut any better? At least if there is a shrine or something for the players to service, candles to light, flowers to arrange or whatever then it serves to bring the community together as people will meet their co-believers at these locations and can play it up. A lot of the lesser lights will just pay the lip service and never visit the temples or priests and still claim to be pious. Religion has generally required sacrifice from the laity and in many cases more from the priesthood. Laanx bless you makes a fine toast in the tavern but does not have much to do with faith.

[Raekh]

How is regurgitating npc's standard blessings, whatever they are ... "light your path" ... via shortcut any better?

Yeah sorry, I was imprecise, not refering to such vacuities at all. Was regarding ideas brought up, to sort of approach an altar, perform some action at it which would kick your "belief-counter" up, and again you had some specific time left until you had to "worship" again.

[..]to bring the community together as people will meet their co-believers at these locations and can play it up

Like the laanx temple or the magic garden - I do not see any need to enforce such by mechanics since people already do that (like the Daughters of Xiosia for instance).

[Prolix]

I have never seen people in the temple pews, I see the occasional person talking to sharven but most of the people who go into the temple leave via the dungeon. Prior to Xiosias reappearance recently few people went to the garden other than to talk to jardet or raid his garden before it became un-pickable. Perhaps I am just not around those places at the right times.

Actually I was think of some kind of mechanic that would take some time akin to hammering a blade and not just pay your money get your benefit. Shrines could be throughout the lands and more inaccessible ones could give greater benefit but roadside one could be available for frequent travellers. Say it was traditional that x shrine accepted y donation and y comes from another part of the land. People would have an excuse to make pilgrimages, guilds could hire out as guards and so on.