Author Topic: Lets make a better game "Together", stop the RP versus powerlevel devide.  (Read 3445 times)

Aewa

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 I first want to thank each and every person who plays Planeshift and the PS crew and everybody who helped Planeshift get ahead, in creating a great free game. As a project Planeshift has acomplissed much and that should be aplauded.
 I made this post in the hope that other people will come up with even greater idee's then mine , and in doing so, we will help the PS crew make a better game for us all.

 I play PS my self, in all its aspects. I am both a RP'er and a Powerleveler, I write here using my Aewa avatar as the spoke's person because, I feel she is both respected by the RP'ers & Powerlevelers alike, allthough for diffrent reasons.
 I am totaly oblivious to how other MMORPG's work like WoW or others, I have played board/home RP games , like (direct trans from the dutch name) "The Eye of the Master", Planeshift is the first MMORPG I play online. I have been playing PS for more then a year now, with some brakes in between.

Lets get on with the show,

 I understand when I ask around in IRC that the PS crew intention is to create a RP game, I have heared people say things like, "We dont want to be a ADHD game like WoW, Planeshift is an RP game". I am not part of the PS crew so I have no idee what the precies goal of PS is, but I presume it is RP'ing like you would play a RP game at home. What ever the goal of PS might or not might be, I think the game should be fun to play and not try to devide its community , by bad game mechanics.

The major current flaw of PS is,

 That it has created two community's who see each other as the rotten apple, this has happened in my opinion because , the stated goals of the game are not implemented in game mechanics. You have people RP'ing that they imagine that they are all powerfull, without doing ever any real PS training, on the other hand you have fully maxed people who never RP.
These two groups go at each others throath and claim the right way.

 This has happened in my opinion because the games mechanics allow this devide to take place. Its not the players fault that there are two groups, its the way the game is implemented that causes it.

Wich brings me to, "waisting your time and getting dumber",

 waisting 3 months in electricity bills pressing (in my case) the V key, to dig to get your training payed, is a very bad game concept.
The game concept only exist because nobody could come up with a better idee, but it doesnt make for a fun and interacting game.
 I believe that a good game makes people want to work together and that training and getting ahead in PS should be a fun concept not mindless time waisting keypressing, like its now.
 Also the time waist concept favours  people like me who got a lot of free time (at least for the moment) , over people who work hard in a factory or an office all day , who are making the real world turn, those people lose out because they dont have the time to grind, helping in creating the devide that exsist in PS.

 I believe that leveling up should be rethinked and a new and inventive new game concept should be thought up. RP should be rewarded by game mechanics, not just people imagining things in their head, because I dont need Planeshift to imagine things and can just play with RL people at home.  I dont claim that my idee is the way forward, but something must change from the current grinding to level concept or PS will kill it self in the end. With the oposing groups fire nukes at each other.

 I propose a "Cast" system where you need "promotion points from your peers" to get ahead in PS , not only money & PP. If people can promote each other , lets say every month or every week , the game would look a lot more like a home RP game where the game master promotes the players at the end of a game. You could see it as a system to get points for good RP.

 I have not realy thought this fully thru yet, but ... lets give an example of how this might work for a ficticius magic way, lets call it Greenway. Lets say maximum Greenway is 100, each 10 levels is a "Cast" , you can train 10 levels and then you have reached your maximum level for the "Cast" your in, you now need first to get "Cast" promotion points to get to the next "Cast" and in doing so being able to level up from 10 to 20 in Greenway, and so on.
 The "Cast" points only are for one branch of magic or skill, so to get to the next "Cast" in Greenway, you need "Greenway Cast" promotion points. You will get these points from people who are in a higher "Cast" then you are, with a sort of exponential more points at the higher echalons to give away, GM's could be in the highest cast for instance when the system would start, and stear PS more in an RP way. The cost in tria an PP for leveling up could go down to more sane levels , giving people more time to RP, and making the RP worth real points in game.
 The "Cast" promotion points could also be devided by other means then just for good RP'ing, I can imagine people can win and lose "Cast" points by fighting each other, but then only for things like sword or axe skill , to get fully maxed you would still need to do some RP to get the other "Cast" points, but at the same time keeping people who have a lot of time or dont want to RP that day, happy by giving them something to do/fight over.
 My basic point is however that RP should be rewarded by no fooling real game points to get ahead in PS, not just by people's imagination, or PS will never be a RP game wich it claims to be.

  Awaiting your reaction and hopefully even better idee's then mine,

     Love to you all , Aewa



Caarrie

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  I propose a "Cast" system where you need "promotion points from your peers" to get ahead in PS , not only money & PP. If people can promote each other , lets say every month or every week , the game would look a lot more like a home RP game where the game master promotes the players at the end of a game. You could see it as a system to get points for good RP.

 I have not realy thought this fully thru yet, but ... lets give an example of how this might work for a ficticius magic way, lets call it Greenway. Lets say maximum Greenway is 100, each 10 levels is a "Cast" , you can train 10 levels and then you have reached your maximum level for the "Cast" your in, you now need first to get "Cast" promotion points to get to the next "Cast" and in doing so being able to level up from 10 to 20 in Greenway, and so on.
 The "Cast" points only are for one branch of magic or skill, so to get to the next "Cast" in Greenway, you need "Greenway Cast" promotion points. You will get these points from people who are in a higher "Cast" then you are, with a sort of exponential more points at the higher echalons to give away, GM's could be in the highest cast for instance when the system would start, and stear PS more in an RP way. The cost in tria an PP for leveling up could go down to more sane levels , giving people more time to RP, and making the RP worth real points in game.
 The "Cast" promotion points could also be devided by other means then just for good RP'ing, I can imagine people can win and lose "Cast" points by fighting each other, but then only for things like sword or axe skill , to get fully maxed you would still need to do some RP to get the other "Cast" points, but at the same time keeping people who have a lot of time or dont want to RP that day, happy by giving them something to do/fight over.
 My basic point is however that RP should be rewarded by no fooling real game points to get ahead in PS, not just by people's imagination, or PS will never be a RP game wich it claims to be.

  Awaiting your reaction and hopefully even better idee's then mine,

     Love to you all , Aewa

a "cast" system like you suggest will cause even more issues ingame, as people will have to vote for people and those that are not liked for some reason will not be able to do anything.

also take a look at http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=34586
Planeshift might be a rp focused game but that does not mean we have to stop people from playing that dont rp 27/4 when they are ingame.

Aewa

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I never suggested that people should be forced to RP, i am talking about the devide that exist in PS,
Also i dont claim my idee is the best or anything i am happy to hear better idee's, and yes, some people don't like you, others will, its called life, you are making it sound as if you don't trust the players to make those dessicions. I trust the players will vote the right way.

The second PS server is a great idee from the PS crew, a place where user input can be put to the test if needed.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2009, 02:27:08 pm by Aewa »

Caarrie

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if you look at the forum you can see that some players cant even act like adults yet to vote for others so they can power lvl up to their highest lvl possible, we dont want the players to have to ask others to vote for them which in this case is out of character even more then what they do right now. for now i would wait for what the devs have to suggest. and by adding such a system if you cant get your votes people will leave the game and never return.

Aewa

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If there are sencible people at the top of the voting when a system like that is implemented and also afterwards, like apointed GM's who give points , they could make sure what you describe would not happen. Unless the GM's want to vote away people too.
When you are in a low Cast you can give less points away then people at the top, assuming that the more sencible people will reach the top cast in such a system , it will assure that a fair way of giving points is astablished.
Alternatively you could give people also Cast points for the length of time they have their acount, rewarding people who have created an acount a long time ago.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2009, 02:43:15 pm by Aewa »

khoridor

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Two things:
First, Carrie is right in that votes would lead to more OOC, and probably abuse. Besides, uncrowded time zones are to suffer again, as if they are not unfortunate enough, already.
Second, the RPer-leveler guerrilla is a forum one. I played for more than a year long before I joined the forum, and all this time I was never aware of such problems. Just to say that the conflict of some does exist, but is overrated IMO.
And to me, apart from being unfair, RP doesn't need to be rewarded. A good RP is the reward.

Now what you said about fun, grinding, etc., is pertinent, and ideas are always welcome. To me, the ideal game would have all its aspects (and mechanics) attractive, and would provide fun when people are around as well as when one is alone. The latter is pretty much there already. If the game can make the same player happy when dueling, when fishing, cooking, crafting, exploring, questing, etc., then the former is reach as well. In a sense, progressing in a skill would be the best if it would lead to more fun using that same skill.
I know it's a very general idea, but that would be my answer to "let's make a better game".

Xillix Queen of Fools

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Blaming mechanics on a divide that exists everywhere isn't going to fly with me. The internet is rife with mockeries of rpers done by the type of people that enjoy and engage in the rules of the game.

Similar suggestions have been proposed before and the problem always comes down to the fact that it would be abused and there is really no way to police its abuse.

Roleplayers might not even be the source of the abuse, but a well intentioned feature could very well lead to more outcry than currently exists.

The way that training is now is NOT to be taken as final in any way.

I mean no disrespect to your idea Aewa but it isn't that new and we might well attempt something that has aspects of this in the future.

I can tell you that after YEARS of trying to gently nudge plers and rpers to get along I don't really have much interest in trying that anymore.

People on Laanx WILL respect roleplay, and people on Ezps do not have to.

I won't spend time hashing out this debate on this forum any longer.

Pizik

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Hi, Thank you for your post. I would just like to add to the responses you have recieved already.

As for voting/rewarding people for RPs. GMs can already reward people if they see an excellent RP going on. Unfortunatly we very rarely do so because it would cause friction. We would be accused of favouring some over others just because we are not watching every RP that is happening. We are stuck between these two camps, the PLers and RPers. We have come to realise that no matter what we do to make one group happier, innevitably makes the other side less happy.

Hopefully the new server should make everyone happy  :flowers:
Proceeding through life like a cat without whiskers, perpetually stuck behind the refrigerator.

Aewa

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I wanted to add this , and i found my self locked out of my own topic after creating it in one hour time, it feels like your stopped from saying anything weird, i feel hurt, I feel censorred.

This topic: http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=34590.msg397610#msg397610

I was writting a response and got locked out, i wanted to add this ...

The idee that it would lead to abuse asumes that the GM's would abuse the system as well, again i trust the players & GM's to be fair over the minority who just wants to freck around and hurt others for fun, every system has it pro's and con's. I had not thought about a time zone problem, that is a fair issue, wich could be compensated presumably by fair GM's in theory, but I agree that it could be a potential problem.

But I have thought about this long and hard, I see no otherway to give RP real meaning in PS then by people voting for points, unless we all have mega zillion cpu cores in our pc and an AI way can be implemented where we get points for great RP judged by the PS AI. Its the basic thing that devides the RP home/board games and PS, at home people get rewarded after playing a nice game good RP or not, mostly decided on who laughed the most ;-) , in PS you only get rewarded for leveling , in the game mechanics. Its nice to say that RP'ing is its own reward, that can be enough for some players , but it doesn't do anything to take the currently well established and exsisting divide away.
 I never come to the PS forum (normaly, now i have to to see what happens with this post *correction not anymore it seems), and I am unaware of or saw the devide on the forum because i never come her but play the game, I see it happening for real in game.

Its a game issue not a forum issue.


----------


I also wanted to add that i just came back after 3 months of not playing PS, and maybe 1 year since i have posted something here, if the things i have said requir a forum shutdown within one hour after well thinking about what i have said, i don't want to be a part of this club anymore.

I asure you this will be my last PS forum post, have fun all.

Greatings Aewa

Xillix Queen of Fools

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You can only pm after you have made ten posts.

It violates forum rules to bring up a topic after it has been locked.

I don't think you should leave simply because your topic got locked, it was locked because it has been discussed countless times already.

Censorship is not what you think it is if you consider a thread lock censorship.

I will let you get in your ten posts here before locking the thread, and I will let others have this last chance to discuss rp vs. pl for a while longer before I am finally and completely done with this topic.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2009, 05:03:29 pm by Xillix Queen of Fools »

Donari Tyndale

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Re: Lets make a better game "Together", stop the RP versus powerlevel devide.
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2009, 05:10:57 pm »
There is no such thing as RP vs PL (Yes, I just said that). Even people who would be associated with pure powerlevelling enjoy roleplay. I have created a character, Alwydia, who spends all her time in camp banished. Contrary to what every roleplay thinks, there is no griefing going on there. And the people that come there might not be the best roleplayers (I do not refer to any people who read this post and have roleplayed with Alwydia :P), but they roleplay. A little at a time, but they roleplay. And this is where the community shoud emphasize on. Not having a grind server where the disliked PLers are going to, but to provide each other some stimulation to have fun. And the roleplayers need those that grind. After all not everyone can be a writer, a poet and whatever or they would die from hunger. If you really want to do something against the "split", go and roleplay. Don't hesitate to approach and involve people in your roleplay.

Vannaka

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Re: Lets make a better game "Together", stop the RP versus powerlevel devide.
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2009, 06:35:03 pm »
Bravo Donari. Bravo.

I have a question, for anyone out there qualified to answer it... Am I a roleplayer, or a powerleveler?  Is Shangshi a roleplayer, or a powerleveler?  Is Orgonwukh a roleplayer, or a powerleveler?

* Vannaka shrugs

I'm probably not qualified to answer, but i think the answer is yes.

(pardon me for only mentioning two names besides my own, there are many, just to lazy to think of them all)
Censorship FTW.

John80sk

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Re: Lets make a better game "Together", stop the RP versus powerlevel devide.
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2009, 06:50:14 pm »
One can be both.  Just not as often are people good at both.

For example one may keep IC when chatting, but levels every skill that's available.  Not really good roleplay.  For example all the people who are now 'miners' because plat is imbalanced.  Or all the people who are suddenly BW mages because it's imbalanced.  Now I'm not the best roleplayer ever, I've powerleveled skills because the character I was attempting to play was meant to have them.  I am fairly sure though, that I lean more towards being a roleplayer than a powerleveler.

In all honesty, I find those that don't train skills that have to do with their characters to be 'bad roleplayers' in a certain respect.  Much more tolerable than the other end of the spectrum, but still, it makes little sense for a warrior to have no skill in swords, or a mage to have no skills in any of the ways.  If they're not going to train any of those skills they should roleplay weak warriors, or incompetent mages.

Just my 2 cents.
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Lokter Tarvitz

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Re: Lets make a better game "Together", stop the RP versus powerlevel devide.
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2009, 06:53:42 pm »

I have a question, for anyone out there qualified to answer it... Am I a roleplayer, or a powerleveler? 

Um.. I am qualified to answert that.. well about you anyway...

The answer is that you do both, you RP and you level, maybe not levelling to the extent you used to, but you still do both. ANYONE can do both. I am trying to lead an RP guild (along with Vannaka and Garris) aswell as level my stats. It is farily simple. it just requires you ro sacrifice a bit of time from RP or a bit of time from levelling to do them both :)

Team Fortress 2 FTW!

Xillix Queen of Fools

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Re: Lets make a better game "Together", stop the RP versus powerlevel devide.
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2009, 07:11:07 pm »
If you role play, you are a roleplayer.