Author Topic: Lets make a better game "Together", stop the RP versus powerlevel devide.  (Read 3398 times)

Smekel

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Re: Lets make a better game "Together", stop the RP versus powerlevel devide.
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2009, 08:52:43 pm »
How about instead of looking at it as PL vs. RP we look at the player divisions as "selfish" and "selfless"?  Selfish acts seek to increase the notoriety and/or status of one's character without regards to the impact on other players, game development or settings continuity.

A selfish RP'er will seek to dominate all scenes in which they act, they will attempt to rewrite settings without thought to the continuity of  the world and its history, they will always have to "win" by being the most powerful or the most dramatic or the most persecuted or the most .... of everything.  A selfless RP'er will strive to augment the experience of other players and enrich the story of Yliakum as presented by the NPC's, the many books throughout the libraries and whatever other pieces of lore may be gathered and extended upon.  A believable world comes about when we all have flaws and foibles amidst our moments of greatness and grandeur and when we are all attempting to tell story that has continuity and coherence.

A selfish PL'er will never report an exploit or glitch, he will use every advantage that can be gained to increase his strength relative to that of his fellow players.   Furthermore a selfish PL'er will stick to the one or two methods of self-aggrandizement that are the most lucrative to the exclusion of all others.  A selfless PL'er will seek out and report bugs, will train all stats and ways and skills as the engine team has implemented them and train other players in doing the same.

A selfless RPer is the best friend of Settings, a selfless PL'er is the best friend of the Engine and both make the Planeshift experience better for their fellow player.

A selfish player is a friend to no one.

The question to ask is not "Am I a PL'er or an RP'er" , the proper question is "Am I selfish or selfless?"


Under the moon

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Re: Lets make a better game "Together", stop the RP versus powerlevel devide.
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2009, 10:17:20 pm »
* Under the moon stands up and applauds Smekel.

I don't get the issue at all. I consider myself to be a dedicated roleplayer (many consider me one of the best), and I have never had an issue playing side by side with the 'RPers' or the 'PLers'. I just adjust my play a bit, and have fun in any situation.

Mythryndel

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Re: Lets make a better game "Together", stop the RP versus powerlevel devide.
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2009, 10:40:21 pm »
PLEASE don't flame-broil me... but that seems to really be the issue UtM... you "adjust your play a bit"... There are those vocal few here on the forums who are digging in their heels and refusing to budge. They explain this stance by saying that too many concessions have already been given to the non-RP crowd... :(

I'm personally excited by the opportunities this new server provides. We can all have a little bit of breathing room... and all get to share in this great game we've all come to enjoy so much.

Anumesa

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Re: Lets make a better game "Together", stop the RP versus powerlevel devide.
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2009, 11:04:59 pm »
* Under the moon stands up and applauds Smekel.

I don't get the issue at all. I consider myself to be a dedicated roleplayer (many consider me one of the best), and I have never had an issue playing side by side with the 'RPers' or the 'PLers'. I just adjust my play a bit, and have fun in any situation.


Exactly. I have friends ingame that some would call absolute die-hard PLers, and others that would be classified as the polar opposite die-hard RPer... i have never had a problem adjusting my roleplay to get along well with both sides of the spectrum (and that doesnt necessarily mean going OOC with your character either :P ). I am pretty sure that since i didn't try to jam my own way of RPing down their throats, they were more willing to try to be IC then get offended and ignore me. No one likes being told how to take enjoyment from a game..if some don't like RPing then they shouldn't have roleplay rules jammed down their throats, just like those that aren't made happy by training don't have to train if they would rather roleplay with their friends. As soon as you start telling someone how they are supposed to play a game that they are playing for "fun" anyways...it defeats the whole purpose of a "game" :P Why even bother?

And before i get flamed....im not saying that its ok to run around ROTFLAWLing all the time in the main channel :P I am trying to say that maybe if people tried a bit to respect the way that their peers choose to play this game for fun, then they would get more respect in return for THEIR way of playing.


Sorry if that doesn't make sense..im tired and a bit loopy atm ;) please don't flame me too much

Birot

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Re: Lets make a better game "Together", stop the RP versus powerlevel devide.
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2009, 11:22:05 pm »
Very well spoken Anumesa   \\o//, that is what i was trying to say there is no need to divide into 2 servers  :(

Mathy Stockington

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Re: Lets make a better game "Together", stop the RP versus powerlevel devide.
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2009, 01:54:44 pm »
that is what i was trying to say there is no need to divide into 2 servers  :(

I think it is to late for that. The dev's have spoken.
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Zontick

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Re: Lets make a better game "Together", stop the RP versus powerlevel devide.
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2009, 02:37:25 pm »
[Despite my own misgivings about the PS forums, I'll write something.

Point 1:

People on Laanx WILL respect roleplay, and people on Ezps do not have to.

Right. But nailing RP to be as inflexible for players as possible seems counterproductive as well. That's not an attack on RP, but it is an attack on 'We say this is RP so you cannot do anything else than what we say' sort of RP. I'm not saying that this is a consensus position of the team, but it is a mindset that I have encountered. Take that for what it's worth (and not personally).

Point 2: Combat. Combat is an attractive part of any game. Unless one is going to sit around in a city all day, leveling is necessary - and I daresay at least some aspects of powerleveling should be expected. It isn't as if one can train in the arena a few hours a day and have a fair shot at some of the things along the *roadway* such as the 40 PP Ulbernauts or the Cutthroats. There is a very high power curve when it comes to the beasties with little in the way of progression. This also points to quests requiring their pound of flesh, if you take my point.

Point 3: Skills. Skills haven't advanced to a point where anything but mining and smelting and *some* crafting is useful. Plus there's a skew. Gold, apparently, was throttled which means everyone mines platinum (I'm interested in how plat mine changes will affect that, reserving myself on that). Platinum smelting happens at a very high level of metallurgy, which means people have been bypassing gold (and silver) and offering their sacrifice to the Carpal Tunnel System God to powerlevel... metallurgy. Sword making is, apparently, lucrative - but only after one can sell extremely high quality stuff. Bronze is somewhat odd in that it's components are far apart whereas the components of steel are typically within spitting distance of each other. And the mining skill is generally considered useless (though I have continued to train it...).

And whether a bug or not, some quests require quantum leaps in skills that, despite the best efforts of pillows everywhere, do not happen overnight.

Point 4: Quests are all nice and warm and fuzzy, to a point, but when a player has to log in to run a character across vast expanses of terrain a player with a brain (I acknowledge Caarie's point on maturity there too) will plan things. 'OK, I need to train this, this, and that there. And I have these quests to complete which require me to be there). So they plan things, and to meet those plans - who wants to run all the way across Yliakum to do one thing then have to go back within the next 30 minutes or hour? So that sort of planning does, in fact, 'force' people to 'powerlevel' to a point.

Point 5: GM Events that I have seen have been rather outlandish in their scale when it comes to attacking players or attempting to hold a resource hostage. So a player gets his or her posterior handed to them, and they think... "If only my character was a few levels higher, we would have had a chance!". A discerning player kind of knows that a GM can always beat the best player - it comes with the title - but still, the gauntlet is thrown down. This is further exacerbated by a GM event which tosses out skills to people when said skills could take months, or years (or in the case of RP-only players, decades) to acquire in a world where players dual one another and often compete for the same resources... Especially when players of all skill levels compete for the same resources all the time.

Point 6: No striations in resources for players of different skill levels leads to power leveling to compete for the same resources - vicious cycle. To get more resources, one has to grow more powerful to compete with the person with maxed brown way who is using all the resources all the time to get to the next level... for whatever reason.

Point 6: The 'RP as an excuse to be a jerk' routine is acceptable, but becomes irksome - especially when it comes to point 6.

Point 7: Certainly, Players can RP better. But players are constantly placed in positions that require power leveling to RP. So while players can RP better, the environment could certainly be made more conducive for it.

Point 8: Hydlaa cries of 'GUARDS!' by players might make one think that something interesting is going on. Cry 'Wolf' too many times, and...   :-\ In a world where EVERY RPer seems to think that they have the right to impose their version of RP on everyone else, and where the development team stands ready to do the same, what is a player really supposed to do?

Point 9: Related to possible answers based on heuristic study of the forums: "Yes, I have considered joining the team but Talad hasn't gotten to answering my email of concerns." We can move past that discussion.
]


khoridor

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Re: Lets make a better game "Together", stop the RP versus powerlevel devide.
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2009, 02:53:42 pm »
Zontick, you have to "point 6", + a reference to it inside one of them.

About your worries, I don't worry.
RPers come in all forms and shapes, with all kinds of skills. And the balance in economy/resources/... will readjust itslef if need be.

Mordraugion

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Re: Lets make a better game "Together", stop the RP versus powerlevel devide.
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2009, 03:39:10 pm »
just a couple of points to reply to
As a player I am a Roleplayer and much to a lot of peoples disgust I didn't choose to spend my valuable game time levelling (had done that with my first char back when CB first came out) so the first few points are of little relevence to me, but live n let live I say.

Point 5. actually most GM's get pwned despite having high stats, especially by experienced duellers, our only advantage is we dont have to run back from DR

Point 9. Talad not replying, well thats a bit like expecting a personal reply from Bill Gates or Mike Morhaime, he is a very busy person in rl as well as with PlaneShift
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Garile

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Re: Lets make a better game "Together", stop the RP versus powerlevel devide.
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2009, 04:07:15 pm »
I personally feel if the quests are more designed to the end that you could level pretty high from just doing the quests you would get more imersion and less distance between roleplayer (who will sooner do a well written quest then simply grind) and a powerleveler (who will sooner get involved in the story if quests are easy to step into and deliver good rewards).

The problem with the grinding ingame is that making money and leveling doesn't seem to be related to quests and roleplaying on the otherside.

If you look at grinding in a game as World of Warcraft useally if you have completed most quests in an area you are also leveled enough to go do other quests in a different area. The quest itself normally gets you the experience and money you need. Both from the questreward itself as from the monsters you need to slay to complete the quest.

If you want to close the gap with gamemechanics I really think quests are the place to start.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2009, 04:13:03 pm by Garile »
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Xillix Queen of Fools

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Re: Lets make a better game "Together", stop the RP versus powerlevel devide.
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2009, 04:20:53 pm »
Things are out of balance?

Welcome to the alpha phase of planeshift.

zanzibar

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Re: Lets make a better game "Together", stop the RP versus powerlevel devide.
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2009, 05:07:28 pm »
@Garile:  Wouldn't taking the grind out of the game also be a solution?  (There are numerous ways this could be done.)
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Kaityra

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Re: Lets make a better game "Together", stop the RP versus powerlevel devide.
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2009, 06:18:20 pm »
I personally feel if the quests are more designed to the end that you could level pretty high from just doing the quests you would get more imersion and less distance between roleplayer (who will sooner do a well written quest then simply grind) and a powerleveler (who will sooner get involved in the story if quests are easy to step into and deliver good rewards).

Well, doing quests hasn't much to do with roleplaying. Why you ask? Is it really suitable for every character to run around asking every person (NPC) he meets if they have any job for him and then do whatever this person wants? If you are a "true" roleplayer you would do only quests which suit your character, wouldn't you. And only few characters would run around asking if somebody needs something to be done. Most would "stumble" into quests, if you know what I mean.

Garile

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Re: Lets make a better game "Together", stop the RP versus powerlevel devide.
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2009, 07:27:52 pm »
@Xilix
It was the alpha phase 6 years ago. It's an exuse for things not being done but you can only use that exuse for that long. That may sound harsh but a comment like yours is a discusion killer and not an argument.

@Zanzibar: True enough. I have used Guildwars as an example how they made level 20 the top and making it easy to obtain that level and easy to obtain the best armor focussing on PVP and skills instead of the grind. ofcourse they put in very expensive armor in the game just so people who still want to grind have a goal but you really don't have to to do everything you want in the game.

But the develepors have made it clear they want to make it a game aswell, so no leveling at all might be a solution but not an option for the devs. The question then is how can you make the game so you level without the grind? The most simple answer I think making use of gamemechanics is to increase questrewards.

If you get both tria and experience doing quests you won't have that grind feeling or atleast a lot less.

@Kaityra
True not all roleplayers will want to quest. Even if it is written by the shakespeare of today and even if it gives you mountains of gold some people will still not do it that way and will play the game differently. My idea isn't that it will suddenly have everyone questing.

My idea however is that persuading roleplayers to make the step to go questing now and then is a lot easier then to persuade roleplayers to go grind. Questing gives you more information about the world around you and I think many roleplayers are probably already doing a lot of quests even if it is as an OOC action. If you then make it so they also gain enough rewards to build up their character the way they want to play their character you have brought them a little closer to the powerlevelers who are often annoyed by roleplayers playing something they are not.

On the other hand powerlevelers will do questing for the rewards they will get via grinding anyhow and that way you make sure they get to know the world bringing them a step closer to the roleplayers, becuase their annoyance often is that powerlevelers sometimes don't even know what an enki is.

Is it THE solution of all things? *smiles* No but I do think if you redo the questsystem a little or simply edit the questrewards and make the next quests with this in mind that you bring the two groups closer together and more importantly perhaps give the game a more finished feel.
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Zontick

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Re: Lets make a better game "Together", stop the RP versus powerlevel devide.
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2009, 09:15:24 pm »
Things are out of balance?

Welcome to the alpha phase of planeshift.

Yes we know it's an alpha. But that isn't really a defense when you're discussing player roleplay vs. powerleveling - when the infrastructure doesn't support the wishes of the developers. My take is that sure, players may be a problem - but players have excuses.

So, I'd like to welcome you to the alpha phase of PlaneShift, Xillix.

Touche.