stamina bar (and food)

[hook]

the idea was founded here , but i think it deserves a topic of its own.

the idea is that there should be a stamina bar for extreme actions (like high jumping, acrobatics, etc.), not for mere running (maybe if running would burn _very_ little stamina).

how much stamina you can have at the most (=your max stamina) would be dependant of your character\'s abilities, potions and spells on you...

your curent highest level of stamina (=your max level at the moment) would be dependant of your current state. so this level would go down  (bit by bit) in time (so you would need to sleep at times), with injuries,  with your hunger and thirst (you\'d need to eat and drink)

and at the end your curent stamina level would be dependant of how many of it you have already consumed while running/jumping high/... this level would go (slowly) up when you don\'t do these extreme movements and (slightly faster) when you do nothing at all (or even rest sitting, laying).

maybe it would be also a good idea to make separate bars for hunger and thirst (each food and drink (even magical!) should have it\'s nuticious and thirst-quenching values set) and fatigue (or tiredness, which is basically the same)

fatigue, hunger and thirst would each have its negative influence on the character.

i always wanted a mmorpg where i could camp out in the woods or in the desert with my friends and companions and cook a meal or some tea, looking at the setting sun and the stars :]

[explorer]

Those two bars would be closely associated if you ask me, you dont eat enough food, you lose stamina.. You lose all your stamina, you get hungry faster. But I dont mind the idea.

[hook]

Originally posted by explorer
Those two bars would be closely associated if you ask me, you dont eat enough food, you lose stamina.. You lose all your stamina, you get hungry faster. But I dont mind the idea.

that\'s logical ...i forgot to mention it, yea ...that\'s what i had in mind too, though

[explorer]

What about, the clothes your wearing light/heavy clothes slow you a little, and lower your stamina faster? Then if you died, you\'d be able to get back to your body faster, and once you got your body, you\'d be slower, but have more defences.

[Sakiro A.]

Clothes shouldn\'t have to slow you down, but armor should. Light armor is great for being agile because you go faster and take up less stamina, medium armor is medium for such, and heavy armor makes you slow and you take up more stamina by doing the same tasks.

[Mehallie]

This has been done rather successfully in other games - but there\'s no reason to stop just at jumping and passive actions.  Aggressive actions I think will also play into it.

I believe the game has mentioned in areas that, in battle, you can become fatigued, if a battle goes on for longer than the stamina of your character you could be in a bit of trouble.  That\'s where stamina really gets you - stamina (or the lack thereof) while not in battle isn\'t really that big of a deal - but if you\'ve been goofing off jumping around and your stamina is low, and all of a sudden some mobs attack - that\'s when you\'re in trouble.

Stamina measurements are good to have; no-one\'s character should have limitless energy.  Checks and balances are what makes games interesting.

[Sakiro A.]

Basically, the lower your stamina the harder it is to perform skills. Like in Morrowind. It makes more sense the the traditional \"you can do everything fine until you run out of stamina, then you have to wait to regain the stamina\" that most games do. Basically, you can still attack and jump when you have 0 stamina, you just do a really bad job at it. At 50% stamina you could do a skill well enough to get the job done, but it wouldn\'t be as effective as if you were at 100% stamina.

Maybe if you perform some stuff while having no stamina left it could take away from your life bar, too. So you could die, albeit slowly, by continuing to do stuff even if you have no stamina left.

[Lorune]

Yeah you could hunt or gather food to eat.
Which would require you to stop to eat food, a moderate time penalty.

Also if you gather and make something like lembas bread or buy it; you could just keep moving without stopping.
Then when you got low on bread you would get warnings.
Like \"Whoa, I\'m getting low on waybread!\" 8o

This would make all that hacking and slashing all those badgers and giant lizards worth something other than XP and time. They\'re Food!  

Heck if your so inclined why not eat your humaniod foe! :evil:

[Wormtail_]

As for requirements to eat food to survive, there has been plenty of discussion upon quite a long time ago. In terms of months, at least. It was regarded as \'realistic but annoying,\' and anyway, newbies are going to barely survive, and die in the, err, \'bucketfulls.\' I can\'t find the topic about food, so I don\'t have much things to tell about, not even giving the link. Anyway, being required to eat food to survive does open up some ideas, but I will still regard it as annoying, and suddently think about food rotting and NPCs/monsters having to eat to survive as well. Sometimes realistic things are not the best ways to approach creating a MMORPG.

As for having a stamina bar, I agree with the above ideas about if you run out of stamina and do things, you lose HP, and performance rate decreases when stamina decreases as well. Now for ideas on gaining stamina.

One way already discussed (I think) is if you eat, you gain stamina. Another obvious idea is resting, like lying or sleeping on a bed or resting somewhere else. Depending on where you are and whether you are sleeping, resting, sitting, standing, or other action, effects how quickly you regain stamina, as well as other factors. Example: You are in a mountain, and decide to rest on some rocks. Compare that to sleeping in a feather bed in a rich mansion. I\'m not sure whether regaining stamina will be effected by the ways I have already typed, but those are my ideas. Another idea is that you regain stamina by walking, but slowly. Wizardry 8 had that system as well.

Maybe if you perform a spell, mana will be used instead of stamina for those kinds of things, until your mana has run out. I doubt that much people will do so, though, unless they can\'t use mana for anything else.

Oh yeah, and I waa suddenly attacked by an idea while typing this sentence. I think you are more interested in the idea than how I got it, so the idea is that if you run out of stamina, you fall unconscious. Wizardry 8 also had that feature, as well as damage taking away stamina as well. I think.

[Fanomatic2000]

Hmm, I wrote a thread about meters when I were new to the forums...

http://www.planeshift3d.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=2324&boardid=11&styleid=2

[Lorune]

I agree that death would be a bit harsh but, reducing your effectiveness, unless you manage your resources.
Heck that would get you killed soon enough if you didn\'t attend to it.

Also you should have some free food handouts at churches and such but, only to the poor.
Also perhaps that would be where you buy holy waybread.  

You could have a Foraging skill that you turned on that would reduce your speed while you looked for berries, herbs and creppy-crawlies to eat.
No graphics needed.
Just text like, \"OOh you found a tree worm! Mmmmm... Protein!\"
Then up goes your stamina a bit.

[Sakiro A.]

As for requirements to eat food to survive, there has been plenty of discussion upon quite a long time ago. In terms of months, at least. It was regarded as \'realistic but annoying,\' and anyway, newbies are going to barely survive, and die in the, err, \'bucketfulls.\' I can\'t find the topic about food, so I don\'t have much things to tell about, not even giving the link. Anyway, being required to eat food to survive does open up some ideas, but I will still regard it as annoying, and suddently think about food rotting and NPCs/monsters having to eat to survive as well. Sometimes realistic things are not the best ways to approach creating a MMORPG.

Whole-heartedly agreed. If we were to have food, then it should be done in a way so it isn\'t annoying.

One way already discussed (I think) is if you eat, you gain stamina. Another obvious idea is resting, like lying or sleeping on a bed or resting somewhere else. Depending on where you are and whether you are sleeping, resting, sitting, standing, or other action, effects how quickly you regain stamina, as well as other factors. Example: You are in a mountain, and decide to rest on some rocks. Compare that to sleeping in a feather bed in a rich mansion. I\'m not sure whether regaining stamina will be effected by the ways I have already typed, but those are my ideas. Another idea is that you regain stamina by walking, but slowly. Wizardry 8 had that system as well.

Yeah, but regaining stamina should be more like catching your breath, which takes a 5 minutes, than needing to go to sleep, which would take hours.

Maybe if you perform a spell, mana will be used instead of stamina for those kinds of things, until your mana has run out. I doubt that much people will do so, though, unless they can\'t use mana for anything else.

Huh? Are you suggesting that stamina be used in Mana\'s absence?

Oh yeah, and I waa suddenly attacked by an idea while typing this sentence. I think you are more interested in the idea than how I got it, so the idea is that if you run out of stamina, you fall unconscious. Wizardry 8 also had that feature, as well as damage taking away stamina as well. I think.

That would be way too annoying. Stamina should be a quick to loose, quick to gain kind of thing. Running straight out for a few minutes would exhaust you, but resting for a few more minutes would revive the stamina, mostly. When people over exert themselves and run out of fatigue they don\'t generally fall over unconcious, they just have to stop to do anything else for a while and can\'t perform simple tasks well. If they continue to go, then they generally really hurt their bodies.

Granted, people do fall unconcious by over-exerting themselves, but it\'s generally because the body generates so much heat that it has to shut down for a while because natural tasks can no longer be done (due to body enzymes, mostly, they have a very specific temperature range for working). I think it\'s reasonable to assume that\'s far past the 0 stamina mark.

[hook]

hmm, in dangeorus situations the passing out can have the same effect as dying, so i\'d (that doesn\'t mean you have to!) drop that idea. i like the idea that you do things pretty badly when you stamina is down - maybe even sway around and have dimmed sight after you\'re really out of it

i like the idea with the resing ouside or inside (maybe just put a positive modifier on beds and bedrolls)

i dislike the fast usage and reload of stamina

i still like the food idea. that \"problem with noobs\" forces more realism in the game - the noobs won\'t know how and what to cook and will be puny and inexperienced anyway, so i think there should be some quests in the town and it\'s closer enviroment that the newbies would attend to get experience and food (maybe even gifts and money from NPCs that would ask for such \"quests\"), but mostly food. you could hirethose noobs to carry your stuff (henchman not slave like!!) for a journey, you could hire them to take something to a pal of yours or to go buy you a thing at the near by market while you do something else, and in return you would give them money, items, buy him a meal...(if you didn\'t he could tell it to the guards that would force you to pay him adequate) ...this way the newbies will get experience, food, some money and items - just so they can start questing for real. after that phase, maybe someone would take such a newbie under his custody and take him with him on a quest, so he could learn and gain exp., money and items. - i would do that for a newbie, and i think i\'m not the only one, who\'s that kind (there\'s even a helping guild already in PS!)

this would prove more realistic, and probably even more fun

i\'d really like to see some cooking utilities and fints in this game.

the different foods and drinks should have its nutritious and thirst-quenching values set, so eating an apple or a melon would be different then cooking yourself a stew

there should also be a poison intake for every food and drink - you could eat and drink \"poisonous\" things, just when you reach a level of it, it\'d proove bad for you (maybe a health, not as HP, bar?)

[Wormtail_]

And after the dimmed sight and swaying, you fall unconscious, either after a while, or after you lose a certain amount of HP. Of course, there are the problems of the penalties of unconsciousness and what happens when you are unconscious, so it might be better to drop it.

Now for quoting.

Yeah, but regaining stamina should be more like catching your breath, which takes a 5 minutes, than needing to go to sleep, which would take hours.

Perhaps you are thinking of a \'long run\' instead of a \'hard day\'s of work.\' While it may be true that after running for a while, and resting after, you do regain your breath, working hard all day and dropping into sleep afterwards. Anyway, each activity could take a certain amount of stamina, and each activity of resting could regain stamina at a certain sped. You could sleep until you regain all of your stamina, which would rapidly come back if you\'re in a \'feather bed,\' but if you\'re in a battle, then you could find somewhere to get a short break, but I doubt that\'s a good example.

Huh? Are you suggesting that stamina be used in Mana\'s absence?

It could be, if the player chooses and if the player is able to do so. I doubt, however, that anyone wishing to cast a spell many times over would not have much mana, but there are cases, like healing after really big battles. In such cases, I am unsure of how much stamina wizard-type characters would have.

That would be way too annoying. Stamina should be a quick to loose, quick to gain kind of thing. Running straight out for a few minutes would exhaust you, but resting for a few more minutes would revive the stamina, mostly. When people over exert themselves and run out of fatigue they don\'t generally fall over unconcious, they just have to stop to do anything else for a while and can\'t perform simple tasks well. If they continue to go, then they generally really hurt their bodies.

Granted, people do fall unconcious by over-exerting themselves, but it\'s generally because the body generates so much heat that it has to shut down for a while because natural tasks can no longer be done (due to body enzymes, mostly, they have a very specific temperature range for working). I think it\'s reasonable to assume that\'s far past the 0 stamina mark.

True. Perhaps if a character loses all of his/her/its stamina and loses much HP. In such a case, what then? Should the character fall unconscious and regain health and stamina or just keep working until they die? I am indecisive as to how I think it could work.

As for hiring newbies to carry stuff for you on a journey, they\'ll probably die to some really big dragon of monstrosity. If its cave is where you\'re heading. You have to consider their safety, because one of those newbies may end up becoming a, erm, well, great person. Besides, you have to think of the starters of the game. Planeshift is relatively \'new,\' and is still under heavy development. We are probably among the first players if we play, and giving ourselves special priveliges is unfair, in my opinion. All people should be given a somewhat equal chance, but life is, after all, unfair.

[Sakiro A.]

Originally posted by Wormtail_
And after the dimmed sight and swaying, you fall unconscious, either after a while, or after you lose a certain amount of HP. Of course, there are the problems of the penalties of unconsciousness and what happens when you are unconscious, so it might be better to drop it.

Yeah, the main thing wrong with the unconcious idea is that I just don\'t know how it would be implemented in a sensable fasion.

Perhaps you are thinking of a \'long run\' instead of a \'hard day\'s of work.\' While it may be true that after running for a while, and resting after, you do regain your breath, working hard all day and dropping into sleep afterwards. Anyway, each activity could take a certain amount of stamina, and each activity of resting could regain stamina at a certain sped. You could sleep until you regain all of your stamina, which would rapidly come back if you\'re in a \'feather bed,\' but if you\'re in a battle, then you could find somewhere to get a short break, but I doubt that\'s a good example.

I see what you mean. But if we were to add a long-term stamina, it should be a seperate stat than short-term. This is how I\'d do it:

Long-term stamina is the same throughout all the players (maybe it could range depending on race, but it probably shouldn\'t be stat related). When you\'re low on rest, it effects you because your short term stamina falls easier when performing actions. When you run out of it, you basically fall asleep for (game) hours and anyone can kill you right there. To regain it you have to sleep in a bed, probably in an inn or your house. If you logout when you sleep, you\'re still technically sleeping, so 30 minutes later (real time) you\'d be rested, because 30 minutes would be hours in game time. Thus you can log back in later and be rested. Also, people can\'t kill you when you\'re resting in a bed (but they can if you stupidly fall asleep in the woods).

Now, here\'s why I don\'t like this idea:

1) It limits game time, which no one likes. It would just be way too annoying to have to sleep all the time because the day cycle is so short. If this would be any fun at all there should be some rather long time before you have to rest again, real life time, and currently days pass in something like 20 minutes.
2) What happens between the time while you\'re logged out and log back in? Does it still drain your long-term stamina? Do you just fall asleep right there? If it does nothing, it wouldn\'t make sense, and if it does any of the other options then it would be really annoying.

I personally think that short-term stamina would work just fine, and it might get a little complex or annoying if we add a long-term stamina thing to the equation. Then, it might work. *shrugs*

It could be, if the player chooses and if the player is able to do so. I doubt, however, that anyone wishing to cast a spell many times over would not have much mana, but there are cases, like healing after really big battles. In such cases, I am unsure of how much stamina wizard-type characters would have.

Naw, stamina should be stamina and mana should be mana. Mana is a mystifying force, and it would probably be unrealistic in a fantasy sense if it could be substituted.