Author Topic: Question about nuclear reactions  (Read 6034 times)

zanzibar

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Question about nuclear reactions
« on: February 05, 2009, 01:20:11 pm »
E=mc^2

The energy in a nuclear reaction comes from the conversion of mass into energy.

Where does the mass come from?  Is it a conversion of relative mass?  Are massive particles disappearing while massless particles are being created?  Is it the bonds between particles that are being converted?
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Mathy Stockington

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Re: Question about nuclear reactions
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2009, 01:47:40 pm »
This might help you zanzibar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_reaction

Though I do not believe we should be doing your homework.
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hulla

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Re: Question about nuclear reactions
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2009, 03:02:11 pm »
Hello
i think the "mass" come from this place

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

LigH

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Re: Question about nuclear reactions
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2009, 05:00:03 pm »
Also recommendable literature:



According to this, mass is a property of the matter, mainly of the hadrons it is made of, and gravity is the bending of the space due to the mass.

Being hadrons, the elements of the atoms exist within the range of the strong and weak nuclear forces.

You could even say, mass is the "manifestation energy", from some point of view.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 05:07:29 pm by LigH »

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Pizik

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Re: Question about nuclear reactions
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2009, 05:39:11 pm »
It is the strong nuclear bonds being broken in a nuclear (fission) reaction that produce the energy I thought.
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Quin

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Re: Question about nuclear reactions
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2009, 06:45:40 pm »
The total mass of the particles after fission is slightly less than the total mass of the particles before fission.  The missing mass is what was converted into energy.

E (energy formed during the reaction - fission or fusion) = delta m (change in mass) x c2 (speed of light squared)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 07:56:23 pm by Quin »
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Prolix

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Re: Question about nuclear reactions
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2009, 07:59:19 pm »
Mass and energy are illusion, we are but characters acting on the holodeck.

Acuzio

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Re: Question about nuclear reactions
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2009, 10:37:03 pm »
Mass and energy are illusion, we are but characters acting on the holodeck.

Good post,
Zanzibar, how can you continue to to see the world as real if the self that is determining it to be real, it's intangible ?
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Xordan

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Re: Question about nuclear reactions
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2009, 11:10:22 pm »
Where does the mass come from?  Is it a conversion of relative mass?  Are massive particles disappearing while massless particles are being created?  Is it the bonds between particles that are being converted?

It's slightly different depending on whether you're talking about fission or fusion (they are opposites reactions, pivoted around Iron I believe).

For fission; When you split an atom there are several products made; (usually) two smaller atoms, some neutrons and then energy if the atom is Iron or heavier. This energy is from the difference between the mass of the original atom and the combined masses of the smaller atoms and neutrons produced. That energy comes from the nuclear bonds that were holding the particles from the original atom together.

For fusion; Up to iron at least there is energy given off. This energy is again from the bonds that were holding the particles in the two atoms together. When the atoms fuse, any extra energy that's not required to create the new atom is released - this varies depending on how many neutrons are also released and the size of the atoms being fused.

Maybe a better answer to your question is; that 'mass' doesn't come from anywhere. There's no conversion between mass and energy except as a equivalence on paper, they're the same thing.

Acuzio

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Re: Question about nuclear reactions
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2009, 05:10:44 am »
Where does the mass come from?

E=mc²

The mass might come from here:

Massless gluons
Massless up&down quarks
Nothing else
----------------------------------------------  +
= Mass

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECkG_JdodMA for further reference on QCD

But I still remain on my Prolix idea that "Mass and energy are illusion, we are but characters acting on the holodeck."
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 05:20:17 am by Acuzio »
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Prolix

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Re: Question about nuclear reactions
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2009, 05:48:58 am »
It was a very trite and probably erroneous parsing of the Holographic Principle in regards to quantum effects associated with black holes.
How that squares with the possibility of Naked Singularities is beyond me but there did happen to be an article in the latest issue of Scientific American which bought this week for some strange uncommon reason.

zanzibar

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Re: Question about nuclear reactions
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2009, 06:59:57 am »
Is the number of protons and neutrons different before and after the reaction?
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LigH

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Re: Question about nuclear reactions
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2009, 07:27:18 am »
Mass is just a specific "solid" kind of energy.

Protons and neutrons are not distinct, a pure neutron has a half-life period of just about 11 minutes - only the interchange of quarks with protons in the neighborhood gives them a pseudo-stable appearance.

Don't think of "elementary particles" as solid spheres like marbles. They are rather a streaming concentration of energy. Those which cause gravity by distorting the space around them have a mass.

Well ... according to the theories founded by Hawking and colleagues. Who knows the whole truth about the universe? One who made it - if at all.

BTW: I dare you to think in 10 dimensions...

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Kieve

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Re: Question about nuclear reactions
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2009, 09:56:01 am »
The energy in a nuclear reaction comes from the conversion of mass into energy.

Wrong. It comes from ME.
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Bamko

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Re: Question about nuclear reactions
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2009, 02:21:13 pm »
Been through Nuclear Prototype school, been certified as a nuclear reactor Operator AND Nuclear reactor techician by the NRC.

A lot of good theory mentioned above.  Remember C^2 is a really big number, so any easily measured amount of mass converted directly to energy would be, well, hard to measure, since it would be really REALLY hot, melting your tiny little scale.  ;D

in basic nuclear reaction, you have an unstable element (uranium for example, not iron) which will decay on its own, releasing heat and nutrons (and decay daughters, which further decay, ususally faster, adding heat and other radiation, but we will ignore that for now).  You have a material to absorb the neutrons that are produced, and reaction stays slow.  as you remove the dampening material the neutrons begin to collide with the uranium, making the half life thatis normally around 700 million years to become moot, releasing more and more neutrons.

This energy release is primarily from the kenetic energy of the fission fragments. 

You could just as well, and perhaps more interestingly ask, since photosynthisis is transfering light energy into chemical energy, how come we can not reliably and repeatably measure the increase in weight in a closed system where only light is added (though I believe it has been done, within an expected range) .  (weight of plant tissue is acounted for by water and carbon dioxide it absorbs)  Again, E-mc^2 is a nice tool, but hard to meausre weight loss with energy use in a real world setting.

Even metabolising glucose and transfering energy from ATP to ADP in a human body uses mass, thoretically, but the effoct is insignificant compared to the amount of water, and even the amount of salt you may lose during such a test.

So, to wrap it up, do we create and destory mass, sure.  press the "I believe" button if you like.  And if you are a theoretical physicist, you may even crunch the numbers.  But when you realize that the amounts discussed are less than the significant digits used in most calcuations, most tend to disregard that minor effect.

We do not run out of Uranium because it loses mass, we run out of uranium (at a level that promotes being critical in the same configuration as it being safe to use when start reactor for first time) because it decays into decay daughters. 

Like asking about the energy/mass relationship of E=MC^2 relationship of gasoline in a car engine.  You can not weigh your gas, and crunch the numbers and figure one gallon of gas will take you 1,000,000,000,000 miles.  virtually all the mass leaves the tailpipe.  I hope that makes it clear, without ruining any attempt and being somewhat humorous.   :D