Author Topic: Question about nuclear reactions  (Read 6027 times)

zanzibar

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Re: Question about nuclear reactions
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2009, 06:47:56 am »
I'm really just interested in your claim that nuclear reactions create plasma.  I'd like to see a source so I know what to believe.
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Prolix

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Re: Question about nuclear reactions
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2009, 07:12:18 am »
I never said anything about plasma, that is a subatomic state of matter not a quantum phenomenon. Elementary particles are smaller than the protons/electrons/neutrons and can be produced in an atom smasher like the Large Hadron Collider. All I was saying was that if humans can produce these quantum particles artificially through the destruction of sub-atomic particles then it is not too far-fetched to think they can be created, or rather exposed as they already exist, buy natural means. I am not at all certain that they cannot be reduced beyond the quark, strange or whatever level as it has been shown time and again that existence is far more complex than previously understood. Elements were supposedly indivisible until atoms were discovered and they were supposed to be basic until quantum particles were produced. Given the generally fractal nature of reality as we know it I think I hear a Who, eh Horton?

LigH

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Re: Question about nuclear reactions
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2009, 11:59:53 am »
About the "mass creation via photosynthesis":

Ah, therefore it is called "power plant"... :D

[ Plant: a) lifeform; b) factory ]

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Xordan

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Re: Question about nuclear reactions
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2009, 12:17:05 pm »
The nuclear reaction (fusion) which occurs in stars is the inverse reaction of what we've been discussing here (fission).
It's very confusing when the topic keeps changing in random directions :P

Fusion reactions can 'create' subatomic particles called neutrinos, but not quarks (which make up protons and neutrons).
The difference between the LHC and the Sun there is that the former focuses a lot of energy into a small space, the latter just releases a lot of energy. The density of the energy makes a big difference.
Electrons are an elementary particle (lepton family) btw.

As for plasma - usually plasma is needed to start a nuclear fusion reaction, it's not created as a by product of it.

It'd be more informative if people didn't speculate completely devoid of fact. ;) Not that speculation is a bad thing.

LigH

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Re: Question about nuclear reactions
« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2009, 02:40:54 pm »
As long as the mankind only knew electrons, protons and neutrons, those were the elementary particles.

When quarks got discovered, protons and neutrons were no longer elementary. Electrons are still elementary for us, as long as noone discovers that they may consist of smaller units.

As far as I remember, it is convenient for mathematic models and for the Grand Unifying Theory, to interpret matter and particles (quants) as a special meta-stable form of energy. Forces are interpretable as exchange of quants ... so far with the exception of gravity, which appears as space distortion instead, supporting the absence of "anti gravity" forces.

Until contrary experiments prove the current theories wrong...

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Prolix

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Re: Question about nuclear reactions
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2009, 06:07:53 pm »
Science is confusing.

LigH

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Re: Question about nuclear reactions
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2009, 06:41:22 pm »
And imagine ... in medieval times, most people learned in their whole life as much as today you can learn from one daily issue of a newspaper.

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Bamko

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Re: Question about nuclear reactions
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2009, 07:00:15 pm »
Most do not consider the effect of mass "creation" by sunlight in a plant, because it does not create any new protrons or neutrons, and the mass gain is so insignificant compared to the amount of carbon gain by respiration.

Urr, there is no mass 'creation' in light photosynthesis. The light is used to split an electron from chlorophyll (which it regains later from water), so there's no energy to mass done here.

Also, the mass 'loss' in a nuclear reaction is a fundamental component to the process, the discovery of it was quite major in the field. So I don't know what you're talking about when you say it's poetic waxing.


Been a few decades, but I remember (hopefully accurately) that when the formulas are tracked in chemical reactions, in photosynthesis for example, there would be nanoscopic increases in the atomic mass of the resultant molecules when energy is added to a system, and a loss when energy is removed.  of course we see this as the chemical "energy" of the bonds, but, as I understand it, this energy is stored as mass.  Of course I am talking about even smaller masses.  Obviously the amount of energy stored in a glucose molecule, is surely many magnitudes smaller than the amount of energy that is released from the decay of a Uranium atom.  I would have to more than a cursory look to find this, but I am pretty sure that it supports my point.  We do not say "wow, we turned mass into energy" but we know we do not create it from nothing.  So saying a nuclear reactor gets power from the mass that is lost, (though it no net loss of particles) may be accurate, but we in the industry point out that the power comes from the kinetic energy from the fission fragments.  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium-235

Just as kinetic energy is transferred to potential energy on a roller coaster, and back again, I believe that chemical potential energy is not magically held there by the fact that chemical bonds use energy.  Some use energy (endothermic) and some create energy (exothermic).  I would bet that the bonds that, when broken, releases energy, that potential chemical energy could be measures as an increase in mass.  I also bet that it would be very hard to measure it, as we are talking the edge of theory here, but that is what I meant.  the increase in weight of plant tissue is 99.999999? accounted for by CO2 and water and other stuff, so talking about the energy stored in the chemical reactions is a small portion. (I do concede it may not have been a good analogy.... I was typing it while a co-worker was talking to me about his plans for the weekend..hehehe)

Same with U-235.  people talk about the weight loss like the reactor is going to get lighter as we run it.  sure, in theory, but the fact is, the weight loss is best pondered by physicists.  When I stood for my NRC (Nuclear Regulatory Commission) Board, if I had said "the energy comes converting mass into energy" I would of been booted out of the Board.  So forgive me if I do not concede the point quickly. 

to wrap it up, that is like, to me, when you are asked "why does this rice taste sweet?" saying "because you have sensory organs in your mouth that can sense the presence of sugars, and your brain interprets these sensations as "sweet"." instead of saying "oh, I mistook the sugar for salt, so it has a little sugar in it".   ;D  Both are true, but what answer is correct?  depends on our intrepretation of what was really asked.  and that might be even more hard to guess.

LigH

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Re: Question about nuclear reactions
« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2009, 08:08:00 pm »
Well - so we presented a wide range of possible answers. Pick the one that suits best your expected meaning of the question...

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Quin

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Re: Question about nuclear reactions
« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2009, 09:09:02 pm »

I pick these  :D


The total mass of the particles after fission is slightly less than the total mass of the particles before fission.  The missing mass is what was converted into energy.

E (energy formed during the reaction - fission or fusion) = delta m (change in mass) x c2 (speed of light squared)

The fission products have the same number of total neutrons and the same number of total protons, but the fission products may undergo beta decay converting neutrons to protons.  But as Bamko pointed out the total number of nucleons (neutrons + protons) will always remain the same

The added kinetic energy of the fission products is the energy of the missing mass.
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