Godmodding GMs!

[zanzibar]

Given a certain situation in an event, like being attacked by a mob while mining. Is that realistic or godmodding?

It depends on how you do it.

What about other things ingame that players might be oblivious about like the laws, for example. Is it really godmodding if a guard "forces" you to obey the law or is that an IC behavior players should have?

It depends on how you do it.

In other words, in all these situations, we sometimes face the decision of whether or not making players understand that there is a context in which realistically, they can't just do anything they want and expect it to be IC, like casting spells that do not exist, or walk through another person, or log out and relog, etc.

A more practical example would be duels within the city limits, or people who do nothing but mine.

So now I have a different question: is it godmodding if a GM tells you how to RP something so it is accurate with the IC context you're in as well as the game settings?

It depends on how you do it.

[Dajoji]

Zanzibar: try to elaborate, otherwise you may come across the wrong way.

[zanzibar]

Zanzibar: try to elaborate, otherwise you may come across the wrong way.

I was simply saving myself time since explaining myself each time would be laborious and I thought my meaning was obvious.

Given a certain situation in an event, like being attacked by a mob while mining. Is that realistic or godmodding?

It depends on how you do it.  If the mob appeared out of nowhere and started killing people at a distance, and people who tried to escape were prevented from escaping, and the mob was immune to attack, then that would be an extreme example of godmodding.  Obviously, there are multiple ways that mobs could be played by GMs, and some ways would be godmodding and other ways would not be godmodding.  Lets say that a clacker slowly walks up to the miners, making noise as it does, and then some player kills it in one hit.  That would obviously not be godmodding.

What about other things ingame that players might be oblivious about like the laws, for example. Is it really godmodding if a guard "forces" you to obey the law or is that an IC behavior players should have?

It depends on how you do it.  If the guard has magical powers that eliminate the possibility for escape, then it may be godmodding unless settings say that the guards have magical powers that eliminate the possibility for escape.  If guards simply show up when a crime has been committed and are completely ineffective, then it wouldn't be godmodding at all.  Something inbetween those two extremes would obviously be preferable.  Specific examples would be better to talk about.

So now I have a different question: is it godmodding if a GM tells you how to RP something so it is accurate with the IC context you're in as well as the game settings?

It depends on how you do it.  First off, this sounds like OOC communication, and godmodding refers to IC events.  Anytime that you mix OOC and IC, you are godmodding.  If someone asks a question about how they can sit down, and I respond with "I think I'm going to /sit over there.", then I may be technically godmodding because I included a slash within IC dialogue.  If you can give specific examples for what you're thinking about, then everyone will be in a better position to judge whether or not it's godmodding.

[StitchedChin]

So now I have a different question: is it godmodding if a GM tells you how to RP something so it is accurate with the IC context you're in as well as the game settings?

That doesn't sound like godmodding to me.  The problem as I always see it here is just mechanics, so things will always need to be explained a bit in order for the situation to be as realistic as possible.  So maybe to use as an example, the tie up situation with the "magical whip" that can't be cut, but that seems a bit like  godmodding to me.  The GM character has full use of a certain set of mechanics and the players have none.  So, to maybe more accurately start the RP from the beginning, things should be explained to the characters a bit because with the mechanics limited, it is tough to figure out what they are getting themselves into.  An example may be:

GM Char:  "the female dwarf pulls out a magical whip and flings it at player X, attempting to tie them up."
GM Char:  [/roll 100 sided dice, you'll need a 90+ to save vs. it]
Worst case:
Player X:  [I'm a magical ninja that has a 100% save vs. magical whips thrown by female dwarfs]
GM reads the players description and looks at factions and stats
GM Char:  [No you aren't, you are crafter who likes slow walks by the lake and collecting flowers, roll the dice]
Better case:
Player X:  [I'm maxed in all stats and have trained in many weapons and armor, can I get a better save roll than 90?!]
GM Char:  [okay 85+, I'm very powerful and would not have attacked you if I didn't think I could take you out]
Player X:  /roll 100
Player X rolls a 75
GM Char:  /me successfully ties up Player X
Player X:  "Crap"

To me, if mechanics were 110% done, then the whole whip RP would be done visually, with saves and rolls, etc. and if the character failed then they would know the dwarf was more skilled and powerful, instead of just being told as it happened, if that makes any sense. 

I know this is a pain and probably a crude example, but I think some fairness is what most players look for.  Not to say GM events aren't fair, but just when new things are thrown at them that they didn't know were around.  The Vileneck event for example, everyone all of a sudden wanted to steal a guard's staff that made them industructable and able to turn invisible and teleport.  But, then they are told they are impossible to steal and use.   As far as raids, everywhere this should be possible and warned about frequently, but yes, them teleporting right next to someone and cutting them down in seconds, doesn't seem too fair.  Building up the scene though with noises, screams, etc., seems to be more realistic.  And powerful mages showing up at top of the platinum mine to cut everyone down, while fun, would definitely seem to me to be godmodding because the sole purpose of their arrival has no background and Muglick just sits there and doesn't "guard" the area.

[Thoss]

Given a certain situation in an event, like being attacked by a mob while mining. Is that realistic or godmodding? Is it forcing players to RP (in terms of acknowledging the fact that there are wild beasts that could attack you on sight) or should they expect that kind of thing?

What about other things ingame that players might be oblivious about like the laws, for example. Is it really godmodding if a guard "forces" you to obey the law or is that an IC behavior players should have?

In other words, in all these situations, we sometimes face the decision of whether or not making players understand that there is a context in which realistically, they can't just do anything they want and expect it to be IC, like casting spells that do not exist, or walk through another person, or log out and relog, etc. In other words, things that we could consider questionable as good RP. At the moment, we don't force it or at least try not to unless the person becomes disruptive and it's not a matter of RP anymore but appropriate player behavior.

I feel that both of these situations would be acceptable, and would actually make gameplay more realistic and fun.  That is, as long as the mobs or guards stay within settings and character too...

Take right now...Oslorrod is mining a bit of ore standing about ten feet from an ulber and about 20 from a few more.  It's essentially unrealistic for me to mine here...unless the ulbers are really dumb, or friendly...If a GM took over those ulbers and attacked me, I would have no problem with that...as far as escape?...I should have an opportunity to try and escape...but perhaps they chase me until I can go no farther...still no problem with that...perhaps I should zigzag more!

hmmm...I now wonder how far an ulber can run!

Guards should enforce the laws of Yliakum...if I duel in Hydlaa, or RP fight in text...it's still against the law and if I"m reported and caught,  I should put up some jail time...

Should be balanced and realistic though...if i catch wind of the report to guards, and can escape the walls...i should be able to be on the run...perhaps until my wanted poster is expired.

I think this would make the game more fun.

[zanzibar]

Something that I don't believe came up during this discussion was trials and how GMs run them.

Yes, I'm actually obeying forum rules by posting here not creating a duplicate thread.... go me!

Personally, I do NOT think that the recent trial was godmoding by the GMs.  Tolian could have ran away (although he would have been admitting his guilt!), or the audience could have done more to defend them (even though they were being told not to speak.... are you going to do everything you're told?).  As far as Tolian's documents being confiscated by the authorities, that wasn't god moding either, since Tolian could have made copies of everything before being arrested just in case something happened to him.

So I'm going to come on the side of the GMs and say that they acted appropriately.  I think some people were upset with the fact that there wasn't good evidence against Tolian, and Tolian was told he was already determined to be guilty before the trial so no defense was needed.  But if the GMs DIDN'T do that then they would be acting outside of the settings, and so they HAD to have a kangaroo court in order to AVOID godmoding.

[Donari Tyndale]

The trial was perfect . 'Nuff said.

[Prolix]

it was remarkably similar, if somewhat foreshortened, to the Vileneck trial. Consistency is always good to see

[Under the moon]

If a case comes to public 'trial' in Yliakum, guilt has already been proven behind the scenes. No one going into a public trial is ever innocent. In keeping with medieval ways, the trial is just to show the people that justice is being done. Those who are proven innocent behind the scenes for major crimes are simply let go, and the public rarely hears of them. People are told to remain silent because they have nothing to say in the matter of guilt or innocence. In that way, GMs are not Godmoding at all. Just keeping up traditions.

* Under the moon helped a bit in designing the 'trial' system, by the way. \o/

[zanzibar]

If a case comes to public 'trial' in Yliakum, guilt has already been proven behind the scenes. No one going into a public trial is ever innocent. In keeping with medieval ways, the trial is just to show the people that justice is being done. Those who are proven innocent behind the scenes for major crimes are simply let go, and the public rarely hears of them. People are told to remain silent because they have nothing to say in the matter of guilt or innocence. In that way, GMs are not Godmoding at all. Just keeping up traditions.

Exactly.  And it also serves to make roleplaying an easier task for the GMs, who are already too busy.

Although I would correct your wording: "No one going into a public trial is ever thought to be innocent."  Wrongful convictions are an obvious possibility, even if the possibility of wrongful conviction is ignored by the authorities.

[Under the moon]

Was speaking of the pronouncement of guilt, not whether the accused are guilty or not. I am sure 'mistakes' do happen, though. Someone with the wrong view of the government gets a little too loud... and everyone claims to me innocent...

There might be a quest somewhere in the game right now giving a good example of the results of the above in action.

[Gravemind]

So, I'm only on the forums for a few minutes and don't have time to read the whole thread, but I need to put something into this:

It is the role of GM's to cause certain situations in the game

It is the role of players to make a decision or act as they see fit according to the situation

It is then the role of the GM's to decide upon and enforce the repercussions of said decision/act, be it (as mentioned in Daj's original post) throwing up due to bad pie, or being spontaneously stripped.

A GM's are MEANT to 'godmod' as you call it, it is their job to arbitrarily choose how things play out, hopefully keeping as close to IC realism as possible. If a GM spawns a bunch of monsters at the mine, it's ok so long as the GM can think of a valid IC motive for them to do so.

If GM's didn't decide what happens and apply it, then absolutely nothing would happen because we have no scripted random game events and everything would suck.

[Akkaido Kivikar]

My two tria:

It is not always the role of the players as a whole to make all the decisions, as in cases such as trials and so on, the GMs are the law, and thus decide the fate of all.

Just because the trial of Tolian contained what some would see as 'little evidence', and he was convicted, does not indicate godmodding of any kind. If you look at Settings, the Octarchy has absolute power in the land. The citizens of the Octarchy lose most typical privacy rights in the name of security. As far as concluding that he is guilty with little evidence, well, in the Octarchy's opinion it would be better to be safe than sorry, and it's not like anyone can do anything about it. Although you can IC try to revolt, it won't get far (I can imagine IC counters easily being dished out).

The Settings of the game make things easy. You are not here to have control, you live in an oppresive dictatorship, and if you peeve the Octarchy off, they will deal to you for the sake of the kingdom.

[LigH]

GMs do not always lead the play completely. They are not necessarily guards.

I remember a play with a banquet when the "leading" GMs were quite helplessly at the mercy of the participants who completely misunderstood the situation.

[Akkaido Kivikar]

I was meaning in many situations, such as trials, etc., where the law or prominent (NPCs etc.) members of society are involved.

Really, half the idea of GMs is that they can godmod to keep things under control (hence they have all those special commands!)