Community Check...

[Illysia]

@Illysia and others:

...

So in a game, to motivate all players alike, there has to be a threat to their survival. A threat they cannot ignore and must act in some way to avoid or overcome. And a survival threat for everyone in a high fantasy setting can only mean a couple of things like:

1. Plagues: Folks try to fight it in good and evil ways. Some try to help others, some try to rise above it by standing on others' corpses. But everyone must act.
2. War: Everyone has to pick a side that they think will win or else they get destroyed. So everyone must act.
3. An imminent, cataclysmic threat: People tend to seek it, brace themselves for it, prepare to join it to survive. But everyone takes action.

...

You cant simply have all nice things in a land. We are nothing without adversity. A bunch of happy carefree people eventually go from fun to lame to sucking bollocks . Look at the history of peoples and you will notice that wars created civilization and prosperity ruined them.
...

Ok, I can see survival. But really, do all fantasy games have to have the same basic plot? You can keep some basic elements without making them the focus. Also, survival isn't good enough in game right now. I've seen that kind of plot tried a couple of times and so far it falls flat after a short while. I think it's just been done to death, people don't take it serious anymore.

The reason I have a tendency to focus more on social interactions is people need to remember that their characters are people with stories behind them and ahead of them, not just a sword and a "good/bad cause". People get bogged down in "beating" the opposing side in war or cataclysimic event senarios and start to play PS in a very limited and linear way. I have no problem with the basic survival senario but too often it turns into "beat the game" instead of RP.

Right now, a lot of the players are coming out of more generic MMOs. The science of human nature won't help much in the face of the generic RPG mental attitude. We kinda have to ease people out of the "kill it" stage and then maybe get them back to "I have to stop X from happening because of y." I think right now, we need to help people define their characters before we launch them into taking sides.

Many characters, start of with the "woe is me" background and don't get developed too much more than that after character creation, if they have any back story. I have found, however, that social interactions between characters develops the characters more quickly, naturally and in a more comfortable setting for newer players, making a good way to get people comfortable with RPing in group and then maybe working up to war. Until we build the current base up and show them how it's done, we'll never have a community that will draw the oldbies back. And all you quiet, lurking oldbies need to just admit it, you wanna be back in game. 

[Lhaa]

Ok, I can see survival. But really, do all fantasy games have to have the same basic plot? You can keep some basic elements without making them the focus. Also, survival isn't good enough in game right now. I've seen that kind of plot tried a couple of times and so far it falls flat after a short while. I think it's just been done to death, people don't take it serious anymore.

Why would anybody be worried about survival when their chars can get out of the Death Realm in the next five minutes then all they need to do is roleplay Dakkru's curse? Sounds easy enough and certainly the way to go nowadays.
Find something else like I don't know... stealing their cookies (which they don't loose if they die either)?

[zoran]

The reason I have a tendency to focus more on social interactions is people need to remember that their characters are people with stories behind them and ahead of them, not just a sword and a "good/bad cause".

Many characters, start of with the "woe is me" background and don't get developed too much more than that after character creation, if they have any back story. I have found, however, that social interactions between characters develops the characters more quickly, naturally and in a more comfortable setting for newer players, making a good way to get people comfortable with RPing in group and then maybe working up to war.

This happens when you read struggle as meaning only armed conflict. However, any social environment has its inequalities, and how people relate to one another is usually determined by where and how they fit into the social spectrum and what social achievements they're aiming for. There's a whole lot of struggle just in that - no weapons drawn or combat even considered.

Take that away and where will you end? A bland sameness where people create drama for the lack of anything that their characters can relate to as much as other characters can. This leads to exactly the setting we have now: whimsical murder and a lot of characters being played as psychos or self-absorbed victims.

This is actually where I find the settings lacking somewhat: a less than supernatural conflict of interests in the world of Yliakum. The society is just too stable, too hierarchical, with few apparent parties or groups to side with.

If you want conflict other than with loose murderers on the run, then there must be clear groups presenting themselves with social aims and ideals, seeking to tie up capable people in their affairs.

I had a good time joining the Dark Empire with one of my characters. Instead of them rolling out the red carpet for the new member, they "convinced" my character to sacrifice some of his personal aims to fulfill quite painful duties! Sadly, that was around the last time I saw more than one guild member on at the same time.

Why would anybody be worried about survival when their chars can get out of the Death Realm in the next five minutes then all they need to do is roleplay Dakkru's curse?

Absolutely. Survival certainly won't do as the biggest motivating factor in PS. Maybe the DR was harder back when Auran played?

[Illysia]

I understand that struggle doesn't mean armed conflict, but the below quote is more in that vein.

1. Plagues: Folks try to fight it in good and evil ways. Some try to help others, some try to rise above it by standing on others' corpses. But everyone must act.
2. War: Everyone has to pick a side that they think will win or else they get destroyed. So everyone must act.
3. An imminent, cataclysmic threat: People tend to seek it, brace themselves for it, prepare to join it to survive. But everyone takes action.

However, PS has plenty of room for struggle between people in a social setting, most people never take advantage of it. There is potential for religious, political, and professional struggle, you just have to be artful about it.

[Timmothy Perriwinkle]

political

I'm the octarch!

[Auran]

@Illysia:
And I agree that your idea sounds nice. But you need to develop it more and present it in form of a concrete story. So tell me, what would the game you play be about? But remember that it cant be too complicated or you'll lose people.

Infact I encourage all you folks to come up with stories that can serve as backdrop for PS. Post them and we will see what sounds best.

Why I pick war, pestilence and danger is that they are simple concepts and pretty open ended at that. You can do a lot with them. Even have your social interactions set against that backdrop. I cant see how any other thing could really apply to the world at large. But maybe you guys have ideas.

Maybe the DR was harder back when Auran played? Tongue

Well back when I played there was nothing. No game. Zero  . And yet we had people quaking in their boots fearing their survival.

Oh and by the way: I can tell with fair certainty that most of you would have hated me if you had been around back in the day  . Seeing how goody good you all are, Auran the Corruptor and the Cabal would have been your worst nightmare. You see we never killed nobody, we killed societies. That's the kind of threat we were and how we made you worry about your survival. All in good fun though .

Edit: I like this guy, Timmy Perriwinkle  . If I had a guild, I'd ask Timmy to join.

[Illysia]

Not exactly sure what you are looking for in a story but I'll give it a try and as for liking Timmy..... er....

[Timmothy Perriwinkle]

Illysia, you cannot deny you're head over heels, hopelessly infatuated with my manly charms. You don't have to keep it secret anymore - shout it from the mountain tops! Go door to door proclaiming it!

Or fill your gender's niche and stay in the kitchen, baking a cake <3

[Phinehas]

I'll throw my much less charismatic two cents in on Auran's side here by saying simply this: the concept that he is propounding and which I support is tried and proven. We made it work. The concept which Illysia (and quite a lot of the current community) seems to be after has not yet been proven to work, or at least not on a large, community-encompassing scale. I know there are myriads of reasons that you will find to point out that that statement is unfair. I'm not saying it's fair, I'm just saying it's true. Argue the details back and forth all you want, but our system was effective and we made it work, and this more sporadic and random approach, while nice on an individual level, has yet to grab the community as a whole. Possibly due to the fact, as Auran pointed out, that it doesn't really seem to be a system for promoting RP in the community so much as a personal approach.

As for what Auran said, it's true. You all would've hated him. You all hated me the last time I was actively posting, and I'm comparatively neutrally aligned.

[Auran]

Yep folks. I was pretty horrible. To quote Dr. Horrible: "I have a PHD in horribleness".  

@Phinehas:
Thanks for the vote of confidence buddy . And for what its worth, I think you were horrible too .

@Illysia:
All I'm looking for in the story is a synopsis in 100 words. Lets hear your idea of what PS could be all about.
Also, whats there to not like about Timmy? He is delightfully incoherent . That's a skill in my book. Nice work Timmy-Tim!

[Illysia]

Illysia, you cannot deny you're head over heels, hopelessly infatuated with my manly charms. You don't have to keep it secret anymore - shout it from the mountain tops! Go door to door proclaiming it!

Or fill your gender's niche and stay in the kitchen, baking a cake <3

In your dreams Timmy.

I'll throw my much less charismatic two cents in on Auran's side here by saying simply this: the concept that he is propounding and which I support is tried and proven. We made it work. The concept which Illysia (and quite a lot of the current community) seems to be after has not yet been proven to work, or at least not on a large, community-encompassing scale. I know there are myriads of reasons that you will find to point out that that statement is unfair. I'm not saying it's fair, I'm just saying it's true. Argue the details back and forth all you want, but our system was effective and we made it work, and this more sporadic and random approach, while nice on an individual level, has yet to grab the community as a whole. Possibly due to the fact, as Auran pointed out, that it doesn't really seem to be a system for promoting RP in the community so much as a personal approach.

As for what Auran said, it's true. You all would've hated him. You all hated me the last time I was actively posting, and I'm comparatively neutrally aligned.

Keep in mind that you are talking about what worked in a community that largely doesn't play anymore. The dynamics have shifted greatly. Your way was proven in the past and my way is being proven now, but it has to start somewhere. You might be a vetern of this battle but I'm currently in the trenches. You way is not more valid. Valid but still within the realm of perfect capable of failing within this current community's context. And keep in mind, no one ever gives up trying to the start the plots you guys favored, that has also failed to reach the community as a whole in recent years. The problem is that you have to bind the community together again and then you can start with the fancy stuff. I don't know how recently you've been in game but trust me, if people don't trust RPing with your character, they won't, and if they won't RP, your plots will fall flat like so many others. First the community just really needs to be brought together.

Yep folks. I was pretty horrible. To quote Dr. Horrible: "I have a PHD in horribleness".   

@Phinehas:
Thanks for the vote of confidence buddy . And for what its worth, I think you were horrible too .

@Illysia:
All I'm looking for in the story is a synopsis in 100 words. Lets hear your idea of what PS could be all about.
Also, whats there to not like about Timmy? He is delightfully incoherent . That's a skill in my book. Nice work Timmy-Tim!

Ok, I was wrong in my assumption of what you were looking for. But I don't need to redefine PS, everything it's about is on the Planshift.it page. It's a non linear game, it doesn't have to "be about" a certain vein of RP. That's the whole point of non linear play. I'll work on giving you RP synopses so you can see what I mean about where RPs can go in PS. I'm not saying you can't have full scale war or nothing, but 1. Not everyone roleplays for the thrill, and 2. in the current community not enough people roleplay to even pull one off.

And what's not to like about Timmy? Maybe it's just a girl thing.

[Auran]

I don't know how recently you've been in game but trust me, if people don't trust RPing with your character, they won't, and if they won't RP, your plots will fall flat like so many others.

Thats not really RP'ing at all then my lovely lady. If people just turn off their characters at whim, then those people really do suck as RP'ers. When you RP, you just become someone in the world of PS. And then, just like in the real world you cant really stop being you, in this realm you can't not be Illysia. Otherwise you are breaking the third wall. So frankly my dear, such people are being little n00blers. And of course you cant play with little n00blers. N00blers want everything to go their way and throw hissy fits at the slightest adversity. Thats not how pretend lives work nor how real life works.

1. Not everyone role-plays for the thrill

What do you think thrill is? It can be a lot of things. But let me put it this way: Everyone role-plays for something surely? What do you role-play for?

2. in the current community not enough people roleplay to even pull one off

If there aren't enough players around or interested in role playing then I guess I have to agree that trying to play this game as an RPG is a bankrupt exercise. And I am sure that's what most oldbies are feeling sad about.


I think there's something else we are missing here. And I still think that something is finding out what appeals to all players alike.

[Illysia]

Thats not really RP'ing at all then my lovely lady. If people just turn off their characters at whim, then those people really do suck as RP'ers. When you RP, you just become someone in the world of PS. And then, just like in the real world you cant really stop being you, in this realm you can't not be Illysia. Otherwise you are breaking the third wall. So frankly my dear, such people are being little n00blers. And of course you cant play with little n00blers. N00blers want everything to go their way and throw hissy fits at the slightest adversity. Thats not how pretend lives work nor how real life works.

Nevertheless, there is a less than ideal RP situation in game and saying "how it should be" doesn't change how it most certainly is. And again, whether they suck or not, they are at least attempting. The one who does not do cannot completely criticize the one who tries and fails.  Past merit only goes so far. You can't live off past RP glories forever, I know, I tried. Better to start anew with newbs than to complain about the old days and not RP because of newbs. Moreover, most "n00blers" are far less inclined to throw hissy fits when they don't get their way than oldbies and people who are good at RP. I know this from first hand experience. Many newbs just need someone to be patient and RP with the and help them learn.... like many of us did in the beginning. I still remember sitting around with Agara early on. 

What do you think thrill is? It can be a lot of things. But let me put it this way: Everyone role-plays for something surely? What do you role-play for?

For many players, well... the ones that typically RP and run off other people, thrill is being an assassin/rogue/bad guy of some sort and being "bad". They get a kick out of "robbing people" just because the character is in their general vicinity. They don't care so much about story, or settings or other things. They more or less treat PS like a poor man's Grand Theft Auto.

For some players thrill is dueling. And they too only care about that.

Some people are better at RPing on a small scale but don't necessarily work things out very far. Some of these people also seek the excitement of "darker" side of society and run with it. But, most of those people fail to realize how much more effort it takes to effectively play a "bad" character than it does to play a good "character". Another unfortunate side affect is the notion that "good" characters are good two shoes and boring. There's no excitement in it for them so they dislike those kinds of characters. This points to the underlying problem of lack of imagination. A shoemaker can be an interesting character if well thought out and well played, but a Dark Archmage can be the flatest, most uninteresting character if all he has going for him as that he can "pwn"...

The flip side of the above character is the "goody two shoes" variant and they have the paladin counterpart to the the dark archmage. However, good intentions does not necessarily equal a good character. There still needs to be some thought.

Some people play the game to chat mostly. Mind you they do so in character but most of their time is spent just talking in one place. I believe their focus is not on exciting events as much as having characters with depth. Nowadays, having a character that has something to talk about is a pretty big feat in it's own right. Also, it should be noted that some events can lead to RP that they find exciting but it's not based solely on the actions of the character.

I RP to watch stories unfold, see what happens to characters, how they develop. I also rp because I like helping and doing things for others. I know the last one sounds a bit odd but nevertheless it's the truth. It's the reason I started running the stonehead and the reason I set it up the way I did. It is there for the purpose of serving the community and promoting RP so that everyone can enjoy it in a comfortable setting. Mind you, there is room for the upset or two as long as it is within reason. The whole purpose is so that everyone can RP together.

If there aren't enough players around or interested in role playing then I guess I have to agree that trying to play this game as an RPG is a bankrupt exercise. And I am sure that's what most oldbies are feeling sad about.

The problem is not whether people want to RP, the problem is whether people want to RP with the other people around them. And the answer is frequently no. This problem runs up and down the scale from newbie to oldbie. People have segregated too much and it reflects in either no RP or RP cliques.

I think there's something else we are missing here. And I still think that something is finding out what appeals to all players alike.

It's not one thing. The way to get everybody on board is to do some of everything. I listed above what different groups like, you just have to find a way to integrate it all, but that's the hard part. Not impossible though, just hard.

[Phinehas]

Interesting tactic. I think for most oldbies mentioning Agara's name has the reverse effect of the goal of usual name-dropping.

Anywho, at some point, Illysia, I think you're going to need to let go of the idea that just because we're not playing the game right now, we have no clue how to get people involved in RP. You're also gonna have to let go of the idea that we don't really need to know what RP is and that it has to be explained to us.

The one who does not do cannot completely criticize the one who tries and fails.  Past merit only goes so far. You can't live off past RP glories forever, I know, I tried. Better to start anew with newbs than to complain about the old days and not RP because of newbs.

I think what you're missing here is that the "past RP glories," if there were any, were earned. Try to think of our past successes as something that we worked hard to achieve, not as something that must have just sprung into being due to the fertile ground of the community but which would have no application to the current community. We made it work, it didn't just snap into place with no apparent effort. If you can accept that, it's not hard to realize that we have quite a bit of experience, and not of experience that would only work in a specific situation, as you seem to think.

Having said that, it appears to me that you're being blinded by not knowing what was actually going on in those "days gone past." Yes, as Auran says, there were wars and rumors of wars and great empires fell and rose, but that was only the culmination of the organizations and groups which allowed for, and encouraged, all the forms of RP which you so condescendingly listed above. We weren't all fighting on one side or another. Yes, I had my own feuds, but there were also a lot of times where I'd sit around in the tavern and discuss magic with other wizards, or heck, get drunk and have Tybalt carry me home. There were people who played "bad" characters and people who played "good" characters, and there were even the people who just sat around and didn't do much of anything (but they did it in-character). So what we're proposing isn't simply to set up a giant "good" vs. "evil" conflict and hope that it will magically generate RP. There's a lot more to it. In fact, what you're apparently (I haven't been there, so don't know personally) doing with the stonehead tavern seems to be more or less what a lot of people did way back when.

In the end, people need an RP-friendly environment so that those who want to RP can, and that's exactly what we're proposing to establish. Now it's true, we don't want to do all the work ourselves... those days are gone, but we're happy to help.

Now, if you want, you could clarify your position. I'll be honest, I don't exactly see where you're coming from right now. You're very blatantly against anything we have to say, but I'm not really seeing an opposing viewpoint. It seems that you think we're just being idealists but don't have the practicality to actually make what we suggest happen. Is that it? Auran has asked you a couple of times how you envision Planeshift's RP developing, and so far all I'm getting is "there should be a lot of different and good RP." Well, that's our desire, too. What we're asking is, if you don't like our methods, what methods do you propose? It seems that you're leaning towards an "everyone should RP well individually and hope other people pick it up" approach. Is that so? Please clarify.

[bloodedIrishman]

Illysia, you cannot deny you're head over heels, hopelessly infatuated with my manly charms. You don't have to keep it secret anymore - shout it from the mountain tops! Go door to door proclaiming it!

Doubt it.

Or fill your gender's niche and stay in the kitchen, baking a cake <3

Just dont ask her to ski, because there's no snow in between the kitchen and the bedroom.