Community Check...

[Illysia]

@Phineas: Firstly, you have completely missed the point of what I have been trying to say. Secondly, you are a fine one to bring up condescension, as you keep treating me as a newb who could not possibly know what she is talking about. I have been at this long enough to have seen most of what you have. I value your input whether I agree with it or not. I would ask that you show the same courtesy.

Further, I never said you have no clue how to RP. You are apparently just not registering the need to change tactics in light of the fundamental change in the game community. If you are all that good at RP you will be able to adapt with less "it's the community's fault" reasoning. Complaining about it does nothing, brainstorming ideas to get around it does.

Also, earned or not, you need to get over the fact that the you and the players you are familiar with are not the only ones to have the ability to RP. Whether you know my RPs or not, they are still valid and in most recent cases as good anything in the past. I have some credibility here whether you wish to acknowledge it or not. More importantly, I have been working on specifically how to get around not having "fertile ground of the community" instead of speculating on how to bring back the good ole days.(well, at least now. I admit I did the same thing earlier but I have gotten over it)  I'd be less likely to sound like I am against anything if you would stop going on about what the community was, instead of accepting the fact that it's simply not that way now. Oh and might I mention that mentioning Agara was not name dropping, I have no need to name drop, I mentioned her because she was important to my RPing. Whether she RPed or not, if it wasn't for her I would have never RPed. She was the first person I started interacting with regularly and it lead to me starting to RP.

The RPs listed earlier were a mere relation of what I have heard from people playing the game about what they like and a few true statement about character development. It is not a condescension, it simply a statement. If you feel pricked by it then maybe you need to work on your character development a bit.  (since you seem to misinterpret what I say a lot I will state out right that this is teasing, so that there is no time wasted on a "who do you think you are?" argument.) The part about good and bad characters is a reflection of many of the current in games view, not my own. Next time try paying attention to the wording, I made it clear what was my own view of RP.

Overall, I am not against what Auran has proposed, I merely said "not yet." The community isn't quite up to snuff for it. Let me recap that statement for you. I bolded the parts you must have skimmed past. And as for my vision, I haven't finished typing it yet, it's not a matter of I don't have one, I have not made a priority of cutting time for homework and such to write it out formally for you and present it in gold ink but trust me, I have every intentions of presenting it.

...

Ok, I can see survival. But really, do all fantasy games have to have the same basic plot? You can keep some basic elements without making them the focus. Also, survival isn't good enough in game right now. I've seen that kind of plot tried a couple of times and so far it falls flat after a short while. I think it's just been done to death, people don't take it serious anymore.

The reason I have a tendency to focus more on social interactions is people need to remember that their characters are people with stories behind them and ahead of them, not just a sword and a "good/bad cause". People get bogged down in "beating" the opposing side in war or cataclysimic event senarios and start to play PS in a very limited and linear way. I have no problem with the basic survival senario but too often it turns into "beat the game" instead of RP.

Right now, a lot of the players are coming out of more generic MMOs. The science of human nature won't help much in the face of the generic RPG mental attitude. We kinda have to ease people out of the "kill it" stage and then maybe get them back to "I have to stop X from happening because of y." I think right now, we need to help people define their characters before we launch them into taking sides.

Many characters, start of with the "woe is me" background and don't get developed too much more than that after character creation, if they have any back story. I have found, however, that social interactions between characters develops the characters more quickly, naturally and in a more comfortable setting for newer players, making a good way to get people comfortable with RPing in group and then maybe working up to war. Until we build the current base up and show them how it's done, we'll never have a community that will draw the oldbies back. And all you quiet, lurking oldbies need to just admit it, you wanna be back in game. 

@bloodedIrishman: Er.... well said... um... I think. 

[Phinehas]

Wow. Did you even read my post? I mean, beyond the parts that you apparently found personally insulting? Because everything I said still works as a reply to your last post.

I am not treating you as a newb who doesn't know anything, I'm simply asking that you accept that our experience may not be as outdated or as you think, and it may apply to the current community better than you think. Your absolute refusal to accept that is what is making me point it out over and over. Again, let me re-iterate it. We made the community what it was, it didn't make us what we are. In other words, it was our hard work and effort that turned the community into a place that had awesome organizations and groups. You seem to be under the impression that the community was just awesome and peachy, and therefore it worked to have organizations and groups.

As for the writing out your proposal in gold ink. Nobody's asking you to do so, so there's no need for sarcasm. On the other hand, if you have time to write out such huge posts in reply to ours, surely you can find couple minutes to give us a paragraph or two about what your vision is, so that we can then compare them and work together. Currently we seem to be going more with you ripping apart our approach and us defending it, rinse and repeat.

I will clarify the Agara comment. I didn't mean to imply that you were name-dropping to gain status or something. I'm just saying that Agara has a... less than positive reputation among the oldbies.

For the rest, I'd appreciate if you glanced over my post again, especially the part where I point out that I'm not advocating overall war as a magic RP solution so much as the construction of groups and organizations which benefit RP and, yes, may lead to wars.

[Illysia]

If I hadn't read your post, mine wouldn't have been so long. I never said the community was peachy, please point out where you think I did. But it is in worse shape now or oldbies wouldn't complain so much. They would just play the game as they used to. If it was this bad in that past, doing what you did in the past would not be so hard as you would expect the same result. What I am trying to get at is forget the past to an extent. It will not help the outlook on the future, it generally leads to talk of how it was which has not helped enough in changing the in game atmosphere.

On the note of Agara's reputation, I'll tolerate all day someone who uses smilies in main if they can encourage others to spread out and eventually RP.

On the subject of wars, I actually wasn't talking to you about that. I was directing most of my comments at Auran and you decided to jump into the fray. It is not condescending but a mere presentation of in game reality. And the reason my proposal wasn't written out already because I had a specific way I wanted to present it but was not entirely sure how to write it out. I intend to use the written form beyond the discussions here and it need to be for a broader scope of people, not just the few people reading this thread. Responding to you takes considerably less effort.

[Sarras Volcae]

I am not treating you as a newb who doesn't know anything

yes you are/were (looks like you calmed down at the end of your post)

I'm simply asking that you accept that our experience may not be as outdated or as you think, and it may apply to the current community better than you think.

she plays, you don't, you're clueless as to what the game is like. why don't you get online and confirm that your experience isn't obsolete?

We made the community what it was, it didn't make us what we are. In other words, it was our hard work and effort that turned the community into a place that had awesome organizations and groups. You seem to be under the impression that the community was just awesome and peachy, and therefore it worked to have organizations and groups.

right then, get on ps and bust your butt if you want the community like it once was "back in the day." if all you're going to do is simply whine and point out faults, why bother visiting the forum? obviously you care, so do something about it, mr. veteran. we're dying to have your expertise!

[Auran]

Guys! Guys!

Lets let this rest shall we? My experience tells me you cannot make people agree with you by giving structured arguments. You essentially have to apply to baser instincts than good sense to get general consensus.

However, regardless of what would work for PS at this stage, generally in life, to get predictable behavior from people you need to apply to instincts rather than sense. You can more accurately predict how people will be motivated by fear, greed, hunger etc rather than love, camaraderie, altruism etc.  For example: The bible says be good or burn in hell. Even god knows that simply telling people to be good because its the right thing to do doesn't work . And conflict comes naturally to humans. I mean look at this discussion, it is essentially a conflict isn't it? How many posts in response to Timmy's jokes and how many arguing RP? We all want to win you know. To deny this is a mistake.

Humans are not noble, altruistic and peace loving. One man or woman may be, but never the whole of humanity. These are not the things that motivate us even if we make ourselves believe that they are. For example: Illysia says she is motivated to help people and make the community better for everyone. Noble thoughts those. However I think its not so much helping people as being known and approved of by others for being a nice person.

@Illysia: If no one acknowledged your good work Illysia, if everyone hated and cursed you, would you still do it? I think that you would leave in an instant. So Its not the action then that motivates you but the rewards of the actions. Fame and influence. Think about it.

Once you acknowledge how humans work, you have won. You can then truly be in control. And that is how you influence masses of people. Not by thinking of them as individual human beings. Individuals cannot be guided. Think of them as the public, a herd of sorts, and then you can take them where you want. To their deaths or salvation, it matters not. So I feel waiting for individuals to grow up and RP is too complicated. You have got to manipulate them en-masse into it.

However all that being said, whatever we oldbies think does not matter because it is not we who own the world now. It is you, the current players. Do what you will for the action is yours to take. And whatever you guys decide must be correct. But the oldbies do know something. We made it work. Whatever the reasons you ascribe that to, you cannot deny that fact, can you? Lets meet again when you all have done as much and we will discuss what was the better approach. Till then, lets be friends?  

Disclaimer: Regardless of appearances, I am not really evil    

[Addeline]

Once you acknowledge how humans work, you have won. You can then truly be in control. And that is how you influence masses of people. Not by thinking of them as individual human beings. Individuals cannot be guided. Think of them as the public, a herd of sorts, and then you can take them where you want.

Shades of Hari Seldon /o\

[Illysia]

@Auran: *laughs* Thank you Nietzsche, but I'm afraid these kinds of sweeping generalization are only part true. If were this simple to guide the masses you would not have room for strong individuals popping up, as they would get swept up in the crowds like everyone else. Base nature is a strong motivation but those that deliberatly resist that, and yes they do exist otherwise the world would be in even worse shape than it is, are not just pulled along like a ducks on a string. Also, love will make you do way more savage things than fear will in many cases. People losing a family member or significant other can easily turn into serial killers. 

In regards to me doing the whole tavern thing for fame and influence, sorry but wrong again. If I had not done it just for the community I would not be doing it now as this is not my first attempt at running the Stonehead. The first attempt was an EPIC FAIL and yet because I truly felt it needed to be done, I came headlong back into and did it on basically the same model. This time it worked wonderfully, but even that came after a time. I spent many nights BY MYSELF in that tavern earlier with little to no interest beyond comments in the forums. It took awhile for it to build up steam. I admit, I was even ready to quit at one point since it seemed like it wasn't doing any good. Then once I heard from some players that they were comfortable RPing in the tavern, some even giving it another try because it was a safer setting, I knew that I had at least done what I set out to do, with Elady's help I pulled it together and kept chugging along. I don't need fame, certainly don't have it now or influence, don't really have much of that in game either, I just need to know that I have done something for someone. As much as I like being appreciated, I like doing things that benefit others more. Goodness knows I done plenty of thankless jobs over the years in RL but I do what I feel needs be done.

And on the matter of being friend sure , although if your character pops at the tavern... behave. Illysia will toss you right over the ledge of The Keep if need be. She has low tolerance for foolishness in her tavern.

[Phinehas]

Eh, I'm with Auran on the giving up the argument part, if not entirely on the whole cynical part. I'm tired of banging my head against the wall of the community's resentment of oldbie advice.

It's a tad annoying to come back to the community interested in giving advice or suggestions but to be essentially told that apparently the only options which will be accepted by the current community are either to shut up, or to do all the work myself. So I guess I'll go back to comparatively shutting up until it seems like enough is going on again to make it worthwhile to do something.

Hey Auran, what was the name of that guy who always used to talk in third person?

[Sarras Volcae]

However all that being said, whatever we oldbies think does not matter because it is not we who own the world now. It is you, the current players. Do what you will for the action is yours to take. And whatever you guys decide must be correct. But the oldbies do know something. We made it work. Whatever the reasons you ascribe that to, you cannot deny that fact, can you? Lets meet again when you all have done as much and we will discuss what was the better approach.

how about this: you oldbies can teach us, the newer players, how to conduct these badass rps you speak of. if there's a huge gap between noobies and oldbies, we probably don't know anything, so teaching would be the best idea. it's not like an unlearned child just suddenly knows all of calculus and chemistry and etc. post a guide on how to create grand roleplays, get on ps and teach some noobs, or even gather a bunch of willing oldbies and show us how it's done.

@Auran: *laughs* Thank you Nietzsche, but I'm afraid these kinds of sweeping generalization are only part true. If were this simple to guide the masses you would not have room for strong individuals popping up, as they would get swept up in the crowds like everyone else. Base nature is a strong motivation but those that deliberatly resist that, and yes they do exist otherwise the world would be in even worse shape than it is, are not just pulled along like a ducks on a string.

he already said that, just a little differently....

Eh, I'm with Auran on the giving up the argument part, if not entirely on the whole cynical part. I'm tired of banging my head against the wall of the community's resentment of oldbie advice.

you know why there's resentment? because you whine. it's annoying.

It's a tad annoying to come back to the community interested in giving advice or suggestions but to be essentially told that apparently the only options which will be accepted by the current community are either to shut up, or to do all the work myself.

no, your options are to either shut up or you can join the rest of the community in trying to make something that works. you're not alone in this, idk why you think you are. i'm getting the feeling that you want to be in charge of the whole thing. you like to be in charge, right? and either you somehow convince the players of ps to play the way you tell them to... or you flaunt your experience and condescending nerdy ex-guildleader awesomeness? what the hell? lol

also, you're not part of the community if you don't play. this is a game. play it or leave it. you don't just hang around like some kind of player-wannabe. that's just weird and creepy.

[Auran]

I'm afraid these kinds of sweeping generalization are only part true

All generalizations are sweeping and only partly true dear miss Illysia. That is why they are generalizations. But that's also why they generally work  .

People losing a family member or significant other can easily turn into serial killers

Thats either fear of losing a loved one, anger at losing a loved one or hatred for the one that caused the loss. Its not because of love I am afraid. Its because we are greedy for love and react to its loss.

In regards to me doing the whole tavern thing for fame and influence, sorry but wrong again.

Thats cool. I am happy to be wrong about such things. I would rather find good people than the apathetic SOBs I expect to find. Such is the life of a cynic who'd rather be an optimist. The optimist in me is happy to hear what you said, but the cynic keep saying 'Bah!'  .

@Addeline
Aye there's much that the Foundation teaches us. Anyone who hasn't read it should with utmost haste. Its very enjoyable. I recommend Asimov and Lovecraft as two essential authors for geeks.

@Phiney
That berk would be Savion. He was a nice bloke though.

By the way, in absence of RP I'd also be happy to play if the game had skimpy outfits for chicks

how about this: you oldbies can teach us, the newer players, how to conduct these badass rps you speak of

Aye, thats what I said many posts ago and I think so did Phiney. I'd be happy to. Who all are interested? I need atleast 5 volunteers who have some time.

[Sarras Volcae]

i actually can't now, but maybe later, auran

[Jarexia]

Aye, thats what I said many posts ago and I think so did Phiney. I'd be happy to. Who all are interested? I need atleast 5 volunteers who have some time.

I`ll bite. Auran, shoot me a PM (or an IG Tell to Kaisa or Giroum). I`d like to see what you can do (and in turn do what I can to help).

[Auran]

i actually can't now, but maybe later, auran

Well well! I seem remember someone telling oldbies to quit whining and do something. Was it you by any chance little one? Oh but that would be so ironic wouldn't it now    Tsk.Tsk. Kids these days  .

@Jarexia
I appreciate the enthusiam mate . Its not like I have a script that I can hand to you. But if we can get together a band of people and knock some ideas around, maybe we could get something going. You see this can't be Auran's show. That's been done before. It's got to be yours. You got any friends who might be interested as well?

[Rigwyn]

Please count me in too.

[Illysia]

@Auran

All generalizations are sweeping and only partly true dear miss Illysia. That is why they are generalizations. But that's also why they generally work  .

Some things are generalizations and some things are truisms. I however beg to differ still.

Thats either fear of losing a loved one, anger at losing a loved one or hatred for the one that caused the loss. Its not because of love I am afraid. Its because we are greedy for love and react to its loss.

I won't get into a full philosophical and ideological debate about this as this isn't the time or place and I don't have the energy for it but again I don't agree.

Thats cool. I am happy to be wrong about such things. I would rather find good people than the apathetic SOBs I expect to find. Such is the life of a cynic who'd rather be an optimist. The optimist in me is happy to hear what you said, but the cynic keep saying 'Bah!'  .

Eh, cynicism is as bad as optimism. Not to go all zen or nothing, but what we need is balance between the two.

Aye there's much that the Foundation teaches us. Anyone who hasn't read it should with utmost haste. Its very enjoyable. I recommend Asimov and Lovecraft as two essential authors for geeks.

  Sorry, but as far as I am concerned I can for my own observations on life, I don't need Ayn Rand spelling it out for me. However, I admit, you can get a mind stretching moment or two from these authors.

By the way, in absence of RP I'd also be happy to play if the game had skimpy outfits for chicks

Bah, go play WoW or one of it's clones. We'll have none of that here.  And I personally have no problem sitting and listening to your ideas. However I will try and balance out any "evil" RP if we get to an implementation phase. 

@Phinehas: Most of the time I would venture it's less the community's resistance to oldbie advice and more your more abrasive approach. Like for instance, there is a whole range of players that have not played as long as you have that have valid experience of their own. "Oldbie Experience" is not the end all and apparently no one feels like being an acolyte to hear what you may offer. Maybe if you met people on middle ground on the whole experience thing people would be less likely to react when you something. They might just start taking your word for it.