Author Topic: PS License discussion  (Read 2428 times)

Prolix

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Re: Facing a new Era.
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2009, 07:00:14 pm »
Which technology are you using?
We are using our proprietary engine completely developed in-house by NGD Studios called NG3D Engine.
Right now there are no licensing plans but we will probably analyze that in the near future.
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Tuxide

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Re: Facing a new Era.
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2009, 07:50:33 pm »
http://www.linuxlinks.com/article/20080525143441370/Regnum.html

That site says the game is licensed GPLv2.
I also saw that URL, that is most likely incorrect since the page also says its engine is proprietary.  Regnum Online is just another grindy MMO made by another company.

Xordan

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Re: Facing a new Era.
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2009, 05:08:33 am »
I also think you forget about the artists who wouldn't have contributed to PS if we had used a GPL licence on the art, there are quite a few. So it isn't all potentially one way.

Vengeance

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Re: Facing a new Era.
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2009, 02:34:26 pm »
Enderandrew,

  • Alien Arena looks like a GPL Quake engine mod and interchangeable art under no license, much like how fans contribute skins and texture mods for PS to each other.  Apples and oranges.
  • Padman looks fun but again looks like an engine with a mod community, not a single game with a formally open source art license.  Couldn't find a reference to the engine license on it, but that's irrelevant to this conversation anyway.
  • Warsow is yet another GPL Quake engine mode with a map mod community.
  • Another GPL Quake engine mod.  At least this one seems to have some traction and says its art is GPLv2.
  • Tremulous looks like a relatively nice standalone self-made engine, so kudos to them for that.  Art is mod community, not centralized.
  • ...

Obviously there are tons of mod communities out there for FPS's and equally obviously, that isn't what we're talking about here.  Before I read through 35 websites in a laundry list, which one of these is most analogous to PS?

Bereror

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Re: Facing a new Era.
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2009, 03:10:06 pm »
Tremulous is also based on the GPL Quake 3 engine : http://tremulous.net/faq/

Eternal Lands has its own license, which is not GPL. For art it says the following: "You are NOT allowed to take our art (2d/3d files), and use it for your own devious purpose, either commercial or not."
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enderandrew

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Re: Facing a new Era.
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2009, 03:35:57 pm »
Any project that starts with GPLed code must remain GPL itself.  So all those projects that started with one of the GPL Quake engines are GPL themselves.  Not a one mentions a proprietary art license.

Eternal Lands I was apparently mistaken on.  One site listed it as a GPL project, but apparently that isn't the case.

I expressed a view. I think a proprietary art license keeps quality art out of the project, and I haven't seen any evidence (any similar projects) where the art and setting was stolen.  Even if everything was GPL tomorrow, and I wanted to fork everything and "steal the setting and art", my fork would also be GPL, and you'd have access to everything I developed.  Furthermore, I wouldn't have the man power, nor players to make my project feasible.  Thusly, I don't think this project is threatened by the GPL.  I stand by that belief.  Others disagree.  However I'm not going to press or argue the topic.
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Akkaido Kivikar

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Re: Facing a new Era.
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2009, 06:41:19 am »
[Suppression of dissent deleted.]

Talad, I like the shaders. Keep the good work up team, some of that stuff beats a commercial MMORPG anyday.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 11:59:38 am by Vengeance »

Bamko

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Re: Facing a new Era.
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2009, 09:17:55 am »
I agree with that.  THe Devs of PS, Esp Talad have every right to work on PS in any way they like, it is their project. 

However, I do not see how discussing the licensing is any more disrespectful than discussing PVP, the death realm, Magic, or even whether players should be allowed to set up afk shops.  [Agreed.  -Vengeance]

No, they are not going to change any of those based on various positions opined here.  So why get all upset about that one category of opinion?  <shrugs>

but fact is, people do get upset about it, so if you want to discuss licensing issues, I am sure there are many sites where that is discussed already.  barring that, you can go find the thread on licensing on glompzilla.com and discuss it there. 

I think PS has an AWESOME community, and their commitment (players and devs) is an incredible asset. 

ps.  I still get even more curious when I find people getting upset about only some topics... Sure, we understand those who hate all debate, but why is this such a sticking point?  Oh well, it is a sticking point, so if you try to leave it out of the discussion, I will do likewise...
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 12:00:11 pm by Vengeance »

Akkaido Kivikar

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Re: Facing a new Era.
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2009, 09:16:07 pm »
I agree. I should amend my post "when Talad wants to discuss licencing with the public" in other words "IT AINT HAPPENING, GET OVER IT"

[Ad hominem comment deleted.]

Yes, Planeshift has a slow development rate, possibly due to licencing, but whoopdedoo.

Why do Linux users always think GPL licensing is sent direct from God?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 12:01:34 pm by Vengeance »

Mordraugion

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Re: Facing a new Era.
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2009, 03:30:16 am »
I am a Linux user but I dont think the GPL is king, the one thing I love about the Open Source movement is the freedom to choose whichever license one wants.

The board of ABC choose the license for a reason its not going to change so us mere mortals have a choice also either we accept the decision and work with it or we choose not to and allow those who do so to continue.


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enderandrew

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Re: Facing a new Era.
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2009, 01:08:41 pm »
Why do Linux users always think GPL licensing is sent direct from God?
As I said, I am done discussing the PS licensing.  However, on the topic of GPL in general, I greatly prefer the GPLv2 to GPLv3.  I am also a big fan of the Creative Commons license.  However, I do not believe the GPL is perfect, nor the FSF.  In fact, there are times I think Richard Stallman is a nutcase whose zealotry hurts the OSS community.

Stallman loves to blast guys like Linus, Mozilla and Google.  He clearly doesn't understand who are his friends and enemies in the FOSS world.  He thinks cloud computing is a joke.  (Hint, it is already a large growing reality).  He has said he would never in good conscience ever sign any license agreement for software as he believed they were evil, and then he went on to create a license agreement that grows in restrictions all the time.  He constantly argues that if you don't have lengthy restrictions, then you aren't truly free.

I could go on and on.
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Vengeance

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Re: PS License discussion
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2009, 12:07:17 pm »
I agree he is a bit overly much of a zealot, and yet even Stallman acknowledges the need for dual licensing for code vs. content in the way that PS does it.

Mesmer

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Re: PS License discussion
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2009, 05:34:21 pm »
After seeing the topic titled PlaneShift Client (without some bugs and with movierecorder) moved and censored "for review due to possible licensing issues", I decided to research the topic of PS license and the claim of it being an "open source game" in detail.

As many of you know, I did not register here just to start some big argument but rather to make some good and thoughtful suggestions, many of which people liked and complimemted on. However, what I found out did not make PlaneShift and Atomic Blue Corporation look good at all. It looks like there are some major issues with PS license. For one thing, ABC calls PlaneShift an "open source game", which evidently isn't true, based on a lot of solid evidence provided in places like this and all over the internet. Why not be honest about it instead and call it a free game with a hybrid license? After all, only the engine is open source but that isn't the game.

Apparently, some people associated with ABC have also resorted to editing and later attempting to delete the Wikipedia's definition of what qualifies as an open source game, after deleting a forum post here that pointed it out. Its original definition being that of a game with an open source engine and open source content, such as OpenArena. PlaneShift's content isn't open source. The Crystal Space 3D engine the game uses has a license requirement to keep it open source, so, obviously, no credit goes to ABC for that part. Also, quite a few people from Blender communities don't think that PS deserves to be called an "open source game". This is, obviously, a major reason why many potential developers don't want to join the project. A big reason for a very slow development instead of it simply being a "hobby in spare time".

I've also found some other major issues with the game and the community treatment. Apparently, anyone questioning the license or the text parser quest system was usually ridiculed and insulted by both staff and "fanboys". Some developers and contributors have left because of that and because the team has refused to improve the quest system. For example, I found out that a poster named Xanacru, who has contributed some of the current PS icons (setup and updater), and also made a popular "Black UI" has left because the team did not want to try a better NPC dialog and quest system. Many other people have suggested a better system and in-game maps and mini-maps (including a little girl, who was insulted on the forum by some people with no brain), and of course now it's suddenly a good thing but no apology was offered by either the staff or the regulars who tried to ridicule and insult people for suggesting it in the past. It looks like those people were right, after all.

Additionally, the game has been advertised as a competitor to commercial MMORPGs in the past but when that part is taken into account for the game's development cycle and quality in reviews, "fanboys" try to insult the reviewers by saying it's a "non-commercial project" as an excuse. Then there is an issue with spoilers and spoiler policy, while the main site is linking to a PS community, which openly posts spoilers. Yet, the link isn't removed from the site. Yet another issue is the game asking for donations on the main site and to specify which feature you'd like to see the most, as if the money influences its priority. At the same time, ABC claims "0 budget" for the game's development. Then there is an "Alpha" vs "Beta" issue that the team can't make up their minds about.

One site (SA) shows "Talad" saying that "the project is the king!". This is completely wrong! The project is not the king, the customer or the playerbase is the king! Anything from 5-star restaurants to best game developers will tell you that. No customers/players, no game! And if you piss your playerbase off, the negative publicity will spread like a wildfire. No wonder there are so many bad reviews of the game on the net. You can't blame players for your failures. This is like blaming restaurant customers for its bad food when they complain.

Some of the staff often mentions "pessimism" when people speak of near-empty servers, lack of activity, and overalll slow game development but there is also such term as unwarranted optimism. This is where you cannot back up your words with actions in development of the game. In fact, when the "fanboys" are complacent, it's due to their inactions that the game is being damaged. Everything is A-OK, hunky-dory for them, so the game never improves.

Being a "free" game can only work as an excuse to a point. There is also another standard that people will hold you for, and that standard is MMORPG, something that you chose to make, and therefore have taken a certain responsibility that goes with it. You can't possibly hope to retain a playerbase with no active development, regular updates, and open communication with the community. All of this is expected in successful MMORPGs, free or not.

It seems that there's overall a big censorship going on at these forums, a group of complacent "regulars", and not enough respect given to the playerbase overall.

For all the reasons stated above, I don't want to be a part of this, so I'm leaving this game. And even if this post is censored here for some reason, you can't control it being posted on the more independent sites on the net.

kaerli2

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Re: PS License discussion
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2009, 07:07:56 pm »
To explain this in terms of development models:

Mesmer has a good point in that PS seems to be developed (I am speaking of single releases here) in a rather "waterfall"-esque style.  Modern wisdom is moving away from the "waterfall" model though towards more iterative techniques, such as agile development and eXtreme Programming (XP).  These techniques emphasize heavier, earlier testing; shorter iterations; more frequent correspondence between developers and stakeholders (the latter being the PS community in our case); adaptable designs and refactorable code; designing/modeling on an "as needed" basis as opposed to doing all the design work "up front"; and the production of documentation "as needed" instead of "on a whim".

Further reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfall_model
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agile_software_development

We've already done a lot of work here, so we don't have to throw everything (or anything for that matter) away.  However:
* Which would be more acceptable: 1 new feature + a few bugs being released every other week or 10 new features + lots of bugs being released every three months?
* We have a lot of good people in the PS community willing to give suggestions, and I appreciate the work the Devs have done so far to improve communication between the dev team and the PS community.  There is still much progress to be made in this area though.
* Obviously, nobody around here is a domain expert.  Between that and the steady march of technology, the "business" requirements for PS are a shifting target, and it seems that it's taken a while for PS to pick up on requirements changes in the past.

Finally, a point on PS builds: why have a debug vs. release build at all?  Most toolchains in use today have at least some capacity to generate debuggable optimized code...  :whistling:

Oomi

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Re: PS License discussion
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2009, 08:50:17 pm »
As far as the PlaneShift license goes, I like the way things are now. For example, if an artist spends many man hours on a new Diaboli skin, only to find that it's been given a really BAD green paint job, had "naughty bits" stuck on, then posted to some random website, that artist has recourse under the license request that it be removed from said website. If a writer creates a book or quest, only to find that it's been copy/pasted wholesale smack dab in the middle of a sci-fi fanfic, they have recourse. They wrote it for PlaneShift, with PlaneShift lore in mind every step of the way, and they deserve to see it kept in the context for which they designed it.

Regarding these forums, it seems to me that a great deal of frustration arises from the fact that this forum has been around for a long while and has a very, very large number of topics. Folks suggest ideas then team members give responses and the reasons for those responses. Time passes and the idea is suggested again, either by someone not aware of the previous post or by someone *ahem* quite passionate about the idea who is looking to resurrect it. Lather, rinse, repeat two or three times, and you get ill-will on all sides and a whole bunch of redundant conversation. The forum has the "sticky" tag; perhaps there is some way to use this to even better advantage, or perhaps the solution is to have a FAQ section where some of the most common suggestions can be housed (as locked threads) and updated by the team as need be. I will toss the idea around with the team and see what we come up with.