Author Topic: [Discussion] very important for platinum melters and Octarchs!  (Read 2931 times)

Davigetto

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Hello everyone,

I am Ayvlis Azshara, High Priestess of the iron Temple of Laanx and employee from the bank of Hydlaa, run by Tolian Tyndale. There is a matter that must be discuss and quickly for all platinum melters and Octarchs.

A dermorian called Earra Cerg wants to run a business, a business based in buying platinum ore to everyone at 1100 tria each ore. They plan to have a table (stand) in Gugrontid mine and Ojaveda platinum mine with workers 24 hours per day (always) who will buy platinum ore to all miners. They plan to have a set of platinum melters and workers to do the job. In order to carry on the project, they need to loan 2 million tria from the bank of Hydlaa.

The problem from my point of view: If there is a permanent stand in the mine, ALL miners will go to that stand to sell quickly their ores, and all those independant platinum buyers will never find any platinum seller, and their metallurgy training will be completely useless, because everyone miner will sell the platinum to them, creating a monopolized platinum market. If you want to buy platinum, you must join their business or "die"... This can create a hatred for that business from all platinum melters around Yliakum, creating a kind of war for the platinum ( I think I can be hurt by the business if any day i decide to melt some platinum).

From Earra's point of view: They want to concentrate all platinum melters in a business and keep them always working with ores.

Now the question: Should the bank of Hydlaa loan 2 million tria for that business? Is it illegal? Can this business create a conflict of unknown dimensions for the platinum? What do you think?

[I post the log about the conversation between Earra and me, the above text is just a sum up:]

Quote
Ayvlis says: what is your wish?
Earra says: I have a good plan for a budiness.
Ayvlis listens
Earra says: a business
Ayvlis says: what kind of business?
Earra says: This business will turn platinum ore into tria.
Ayvlis says: well... lots of people have this kind of business
Ayvlis says: even me
Ayvlis says: [I am lvl 50 of metalurgy]
Ayvlis says: and well, what do you want?
Earra says: I have a friend (actually a couple) who are goom platinum metalurgists
Earra says: I have noticed that often miners do not have someone to sell their ore to at a fair price.
Ayvlis says: before you continue
Ayvlis says: what do you consider "fair price?"
Earra says: It seems that a fair price to most is 1100 tria for each platinum ore.
Earra says: This is my proposal.
Earra says: We will always have a table at the mine to buy ore
Ayvlis says: you want to make a business to destroy those buyers who do not offer 1100 tria at least
Ayvlis says: is it right?
Earra says: no wait
Ayvlis quiets herself "continue, I sometimes show myself a bit eager"
Earra says: we will pay 1100 for each. We will always be there. The miners will grow to depend on us.
Earra says: We will store our ore in a guild house, actually two, one in Gug and one in Ojaveda
Ayvlis says: and what will you do with all that ore stored? why not melt it directly?
Earra says: Some guild members will run the ore from the tables the the houses. When are metalurgists are availiable, they will smelt the ore into ingots
Ayvlis says: ahhh I understand
Earra says: We will collect the ore all of the time and smelt when we can.
Ayvlis rubs his chin
Ayvlis says: mmm
Ayvlis says: that is not a very good idea
Ayvlis says: I want to ask you
Earra says: To start such a business I will need a loan. That is where your bank comes in.
Earra says: no?
Ayvlis says: there are lots of fair sellers like me who buy the ores at 1100 tria each ore
Ayvlis says: what about them?
Earra says: Most of the time buyers of ore are not around and the sellers must sell for less.
Ayvlis says: yeah, but if you are there permanently
Ayvlis says: then all fair sellers will be... lost maybe?
Ayvlis says: they have trained all their metallurgy for nothing
Earra says: We have even discussed paying a bit more to get the business away from any competition
Ayvlis says: paying a bit more?
Ayvlis says: what do you say?
Ayvlis says: what do you mean?
Earra says: By the volume we will fo, we can still make a good profit.
Ayvlis says: let me says to you what I think
Earra says: I am listening
Ayvlis says: you will have a table near gugrontid or the plat mine in ojaveda
Ayvlis says: where people can come and sell their ores
Ayvlis says: a kind of "quick access"
Earra says: yes at all times
Ayvlis says: everyone indeed will come at your table
Ayvlis says: and this will create a dependance
Ayvlis says: however...
Ayvlis says: there will be lots of platinum buyers who will look of sellers, and they will not find them because you have bought all platinum
Ayvlis says: and those platinum buyers will not find any seller, so their metalurgy training will become useless
Earra says: we could sell to them or smelt it ourself
Ayvlis says: sell what?
Ayvlis says: the platinum?
Earra says: the ore
Ayvlis says: the ores?
Earra says: the platinum
Earra says: we will profit on each sale
Ayvlis says: you say that, for example
Ayvlis says: you buy 50 plats ores to a miner at 1100 each one
Ayvlis says: now, comes a buyer, but no one sells platinum because you have bought it
Earra says: The best metalurgists will want to come work for us, because we will pay well and they will have plenty of work.
Ayvlis says: which price will you sell your plats to the buyers?
Ayvlis says: 1120, for instance??
Earra says: ingots sell for 1288 tria
Ayvlis says: I know
Earra says: we will pay our smelters an amount less than the 1100, however they will be quarenteed much ore to work on
Ayvlis says: give me a full example
Ayvlis says: let's imagine i am a minner
Earra says: we also need to pay the runners and table workers. This has all been worked out
Ayvlis says: and you the buyer
Ayvlis says: you will pay 1100 for each ore to me, right?
Earra says: yes the miner gets 1100
Ayvlis says: and If I am a buyer and I don't find anyone who sells? what must I do?
Ayvlis says: (I don't find anyone because you bought ALL platinum)
Earra says: We are not concerned about the competitors. We will buy all ore we can.
Ayvlis says: I don't know if you are ware of that, but...
Ayvlis says: *aware
Earra says: and we will always be at the mines to buy ore.
Ayvlis says: but you will hurt seriously all platinum buyers around Yliakum
Ayvlis says: who will feel themselves as useless metalurgers
Ayvlis says: and this can create a war
Ayvlis says: a war for the platinum
Ayvlis says: and all platinum buyers will hate you
Earra says: who are platinum buyers? Just smelters in training. They can come work for us and get more training.
Earra says: I believe they will be happy to get the extra work.
Ayvlis says: You mean that you want to concentrate all platinum buyers in your company?
Earra says: When the smelters are not availiable, the ore will still be bought and stored.
Ayvlis says: mmm
Ayvlis says: all platinum buyers must join your company or die... it does not sound good...,
Earra says: We do not require to have all the buyers. If there is competition, we may be able to pay more than them to the miners.
Ayvlis says: tell me, if I join your company as platinum melter
Earra says: no one is to die.
Ayvlis says: what will be the perks?
Ayvlis says: my benefits as platinum melter if I join
Ayvlis says: are you sure I will win more money than if I melt by myself?
Earra says: the best perk is that you would have quaranteed ore , as much as you could handle, for the entire time you were working.
Ayvlis says: and ehat amount of tria do you need?
Ayvlis says: *what
Earra says: yes, because you would have more ore to smelt, you would actually earn more tria as well as more experience
Ayvlis says: [experience in metalurgy when you achieve lvl 50 is useless xD]
Earra says: I am looking to get a loan of two million tria to start up this company.
Ayvlis says: 2 million of tria...
Ayvlis says: mmm
Ayvlis says: for what purposes?
Ayvlis says: what will you buy?
Earra says: the guild, houses, the ore to build a stock pile and initial saleries.
Ayvlis says: mmm
Earra says: This will be a good investment for your bank.
Ayvlis says: indeed it is, but we also take care about the society
Ayvlis says: mmm
Ayvlis says: I will send a report to Tolian about all your proposal, but more people must be kept informed
Ayvlis says: We have to discuss with the Octarchs (GM)
Earra says: society will benefit. This will be better for the miners, as well as metalurgists, as well as the company
Ayvlis says: and with several platinum smelters
Ayvlis says: to discuss if your business is legal or not and if it can break in a war
Ayvlis writes several notes on a notebook
Ayvlis says: [I will make a post in the forum about this matter, you will be able to check it once I post it]
Ayvlis says: is it everything ok for you?
Ayvlis says: first we must discuss the matter
Ayvlis says: and listen what people think about your business
Ayvlis says: [what is your nick in the forum?]
Earra says: alright, but please tell those smelters to consider the increased volume they will get with our company. Also will a stock pile, there will always be ore to smelt.
Earra says: forum?
Ayvlis says: [I will pass them a log of the conversation]
Ayvlis says: [yeah, Planeshift forum]
Ayvlis says: [do you have an account?]
Earra says: no
Ayvlis says: go to http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf and make one]
Ayvlis says: then in the I-game forum you will be able to check the post and the discussion
Ayvlis says: *In-game forum
Earra says: do I need that to play the game?
Ayvlis says: not really but it is a very good idea having one
Ayvlis says: well
Ayvlis says: I think I have not anything more to tell ypou
Ayvlis says: We will have a discussion and we will make up a decision
Ayvlis says: however, if the octarchs and the most of smelters do not like the idea
Ayvlis says: you will not be able to run the business
Earra says: oh, I see
Ayvlis says: if you do, you could be put under arrest by the authorities of Hydlaa
Ayvlis says: for now, just wait for my answer or Tolian's answer
Ayvlis says: [also check the discussion in the forum once I post it]
Ayvlis says: tell me
Earra says: why do I need to discuss on the forum?
Ayvlis says: [because a in-game discussion is rather hard to hold, there are people from everywhere in the globe]
Earra says: I understand your checking with the officials to permit the compny, but that can be done here right?
Ayvlis says: [it is rather and very, very hard to be done in-game]
Ayvlis says: [not everyone is online in the same time]
Ayvlis says: [so the best way is the forum]
Earra says: oh, I thought it was just a loan for a business
Ayvlis says: it is more than a loan
Earra says: I did not realize it would be so complicated.
Ayvlis says: it is a business that can be illegal and bring lots of problems
Ayvlis says: we must discuss it first
Ayvlis says: well, I have to leave
Ayvlis says: check the forum soon
Earra says: Then should I first get permission from the authorities. You know that my father is a ruler.
Ayvlis says: I will inform you when it is done
Ayvlis says: Ypour father could be a ruler, young one, but he is not the only ruler
Ayvlis says: there are lots of rulers in Yliakum, and they work together
Earra says: He is an Octarch.
Earra says: yes I know there are others.
Ayvlis says: Maybe, mine was an authority too
Ayvlis says: He was the High Priest of this temple
Ayvlis smiles
Ayvlis says: well
Ayvlis says: let me discuss the matter
Ayvlis says: see you soon!
Only deaths can see the end of battles

Elady

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Re: [Discussion] very important for platinum melters and Octarchs!
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2009, 03:44:39 pm »
If this new company will be paying 1100 per Plat ore, and paying the table workers, the ore runners and the smelters then I don't think the company will be making enough profit to pay back the 2 million tria loan ( plus interest I assume). Remember that smelters  slag ores so for each purchased ore slaged the new company will suffer a loss equal to the price paid to the miner plus al the employees.

Add in the act that I will continue to smelt my own ores, plus I have friends that I smelt for free for and I also have friends I smelt for in an arrangement that pays them better than 1100 per ore. I already have all the smelting business I want so I normally don't buy ores from people I don't know ( unless there really is no other buyer around and then I'll help out someone who is desperate).

I say give them the loan. I don't think this new company will have enough volume to make enough profit if they are paying miners, table workers, runners, smelters and considering slag loss and loan interest. This could be interesting to see what happens when this new company can't make their load payments :)

Prolix

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Re: [Discussion] very important for platinum melters and Octarchs!
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2009, 04:42:27 pm »
What kind of collateral are they able to provide for such a sizable loan? From the sound of it  they need to buy two guild houses and that amount is likely to be insufficient even if there were guild houses currently on the market. Also there has been a prohibition of a guild owning more than one house so that if one or more houses would be the collateral the bank might come into the position of having to make a quick sale and not recoup its money.

By the way does the Octarchy currently require taxes to be paid by the bank and other formal businesses? I am guessing not but it should.


StitchedChin

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Re: [Discussion] very important for platinum melters and Octarchs!
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2009, 12:28:18 am »
I say the loan is unnecessary.  It causes the very risk that would put them out of business.  They do not need that much starting capital to begin doing this and a guild house to store the ore is not cost effective.  You do not want to store the ore for a long time anyway, a quick turnover is the safest and most profitable way to do business.  Paying a couple million trias for a house to store ore is not a good way to go.  Guards would probably work best to start out and then they'd have enough trias in about a month to expand from there, if successful of course.

If they did do the loan, working on some quick numbers, best case, it'd take 10,640 ores (0 slags, full 188 trias profit with their own smelter) to make 2 million trias.  If they could buy an average of 500 ores a day, it'd take ~22 days to pay back the loan.  That doesn't seem impossible to me.  Since it sounds like they don't have their own smelter, it'd take ~44 days if they split the 188 down the middle with the smelter, slags won't be too much of a problem, 1-3% delay, 5-15 ores a day.  I'd check with Trasok and Gardr, maybe they'd share some information on how many platinum ingots they buy per day, I'm sure it must be well over 500.  If it is closer to 2,000, then 500 should be possible to compensate for the loyal miners and miners that can smelt their own.

So is it legal?  I'd say so, why not?  They have just as much right to buy ore and offer an angle compared to any other smelter out there.  I don't really see the difference between them offering 1100 per ore and some other smelter.  And smelters are outbidding Gardr now anyway, so they are just another buyer entering the market.

Will it create conflicts?  Absolutely, a bunch of them, and that may be why it won't work unless the stronger smelters and guilds are okay with it.  If the loan is done, it'll be easy for competition to put their loan in default by offering free smelting, so diplomacy and cooperation will be a must.

As a smelter, I wouldn't mind them being around.  I don't think there is enough work for probably 90% of the smelters out there however since it would take about an hour to smelt a full days worth of ore, but if I happened to be around and was offered 100 trias per ore to smelt 500 platinum ores, I think making a quick 50k wouldn't be such a bad thing.  It'd be interesting to see if that is how it would work or if it would just turn into a chaotic mess of a market.  The pure miners would definitely win out on this one, though.

Eurac

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Re: [Discussion] very important for platinum melters and Octarchs!
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2009, 01:40:27 am »
Buying gold ores. ;D

Bguy

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Re: [Discussion] very important for platinum melters and Octarchs!
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2009, 03:10:21 am »
I have a personal idea of exactly is going to happen to this business, yet like Seldon (Read Isacc Asimov's Foundation Series), I can't reveal it or else it will change the course of events  :D All I can say is, good luck in the future to miners and smelters out there, if this happens, there is going to be a economic ride.

Akeera

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Re: [Discussion] very important for platinum melters and Octarchs!
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2009, 02:24:02 pm »
I paid 1200 tria each plat over a long period. And I didn't need a loan by the Hydlaa bank for it. of course I had trouble with other smelters, mostly dwarves, telling me I would ruin the market. the only anwser I had for them was: "thinking negative is not good for your health"

Donari Tyndale

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Re: [Discussion] very important for platinum melters and Octarchs!
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2009, 03:17:43 pm »
As always, the Bank of Hydlaa is more than eager to fund a starting business.

Davigetto

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Re: [Discussion] very important for platinum melters and Octarchs!
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2009, 07:01:56 pm »
As always, the Bank of Hydlaa is more than eager to fund a starting business.

[OOC]Is there REALLY any in-game way to force/punish someone to return a loan if the 2 million + 12% are not paid in a month?[/OOC]
Only deaths can see the end of battles

Donari Tyndale

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Re: [Discussion] very important for platinum melters and Octarchs!
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2009, 07:13:25 pm »
[Yup.]

Dalgin Xawanda

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Re: [Discussion] very important for platinum melters and Octarchs!
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2009, 02:02:54 am »
I believe that the price of platinum hurts the economy. :ban: Too many people go to platinum for quick tria, despite it being tedious work.  When it is smelted, it has no more real value other than selling it.  I believe that the octarch [npcs] should lower the price of platinum, and encourage miners of iron and coal, and smelters of steel.  This way, crafted weapons could become more popular.  Crafters would hire miners and smelters, and that would solve the problem of no work.  Even if the price of plat. is higher, you will have a good chance of getting a job if you go to a smith and offer your services. That is why I am trying to find miners/smelters to work for me.  \\o//

Zjok

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Re: [Discussion] very important for platinum melters and Octarchs!
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2009, 03:44:20 am »
StitchedChin has a good point. The need for a building is questionable.
I will outbid StitchedChin for the 500 ores smelting per day and do it for 99 tria per ore. ;D
Let the price war begin. :devil: