New crafting ways!

[draxavi]

Hello everyone! i cant think in a better title, cause it's a complex idea and not so easy to explain (also because my english is really bad)

Ok, i will try to explain in parts, and maybe it will take more than one post, if one get to big.

1 - The ideia

  Making a high level crafting system, that starts in getting the materials, transforming those, using the various materials to make itens, maybe using this items to make other items or as tolls to work on the materials.

This is the first part(and don't have nothing new) of the idea, but, there is another point...

ALL items and materials and anything(maybe with some exceptions, like money, i said maybe) will have a series of attributes, by attributes i am referring to REAL attributes, not the bonuses(like more 5 in defense). when i say real attributes, i say the object attribute, for example, a chunk of iron can have the attribute hardness...

In great part of these, you can use methods. methods can change the attributes of the material or item(i will call everything in the game object from now on)

Based on those attributes that we will have things like the bonuses, and any other gameplay attribute.

2 - So what?

Well... This system will bring 2 things: More roleplay, since we will not say "oh, this armor boosts my defense" (i know, we cant say that)  but we can really say "Oh... This armor is made of <name of the material>... Is a really hard material."

3 - Ok, and now?

Now i will try to explain what i think about the idea, its really hard to explain this in English, and writing  and without real time feedback... But i will try, i will explain first what i said before, in a more organized way (for now i will just reexplain using something similar  "programmer terminology" , but i think that is not really hard to understand, then i will explain each part of process, giving time to wait the feedback, and if i have a positive feedback, i will suggest how we can discuss this idea. ok lets go!
(i will break this in another post, this is not a flooding, just organization)

note: i am waiting a feedback to proceed

[draxavi]

4 - The crafting system overview and "syntax"

(note: my dictionary is off)

Like i said before, all things(all things that you can put in your inventory) are objects, and all objects have one or more attributes, also will have methods, almost every object can have one or more method to work on it...

i will use something similar a sintx to show how its works (we can use this on the rest of the topic)

when i reffer to an object i will write in this way:
object{attributes goes here}
or
object
{
attributes goes here
}

when i reffer to an attribute i will write in this way:
attribute="value"
as you see, every attribute have a value

when i reffer to an method i will write in this way:
method(){here goes the description}
in "()" we can put something if nescessary as in:
method(object)
or
method(object1,object2)
but the () is just to ilustrate tha is a method

ok, not really nescessary, but the coders will understant what i am saying

a object in the end will be in that way
object
{
attribute1="value"
attribute2="value"
methods="method1()","method2()"
}

and if i saying about a new attribute i will write:
new attribute(attribute name){description goes here}

we have 2 main types of methods, the single methods and the combining methods
the single methods work in just one object.
the combining methods worl in more than one objects.

if its a single method i can write in this way:
sin_method name(){}

if its a combined method in this way:
comb_method name(){}

in the case of combined, almost of times i will write how much objects are combined:
com_methodname(object,object){}

ah! another thing, in the brackets i will almost of times put a general type of object, like:
sin_methodname(wood){}
or
comb_methodname(iron,iron){}

fell free to write in any way, i will write in this, and not aways, this helps the coders to see the thing better, i think.
also, fell free to ask anything.

[draxavi]

5 - But what is objects,attributes and methods after all?

Like i said before, everything that is in your inventory is a object.
An attribute are characteristics of a object, like the weight  but there some attributes that are not concrete, like the type of the object or the object name.
An method is something more complex, you use a method to change the object, creating a variation of the object or a totally new object.
This new objects will have change in attributes, and maybe can lost some and gain others.
A method cam be single or combined
A single method apply to one object
A combined method apply to more than one object
A method can be a lot of stuff, for example, you can have a method called cut, this method cut something and its a single method, or you can have a method called fuse, this method fuse two materials and is a combined method.
A method has parameters, in the example above those parameters can be number of pieces that can be splited. in the melt the parameter  can be for example the temperature.
To use a method, you have to use a toll a skill or both.
So, to apply a method you have to choose one or more objects, then tune the parameters and wait for good results.
In some cases you have to do a sequence of methods to have a specified object(called a process), this happen in almost of cases that we craft an usable item, you do this coking, crafting weapons...

this is just a example, the methods can be less or more complex

6 - but drax, this is to much complex, i just to want to made a sword...

... and you can! thanks to the processes! a processes is a sequence of methods, with a exact value to the parameters.
for example, a process to create a metal from two other metals can be:
step 1
objects:metal A,metal B
method:fuse in 130 C
this is a simples process, a coking process, for example, is more complex.

7- but why all this stuff?
well, like i said before, this will let the game grow "live"

note: i said before that methods have parameters in brackets, and said that normally will be the type of the objects, but i forgot that a method have real parameters, like the temperature in the fuse process... so, those parameters that will be in brackets, the objects envolved, and more about the parameters will be in the method description, also i can specify a process, in that way:
process<sequence of process, in steps saying the objects in each step, the method and the parameters, each step is one method with the objects and parameters, in some case, the mold

7a- mold?
yes, a mold is used to choose how the new object will look, this is linked to the objects propiets, so a axe cannot look like a sword, a bigger sword is more heavy than a smaller one, the mold itself is a parameter, but a more complex one.

[draxavi]

8 - objects main attributes

Like i said, its is your inventory, is a object.

The objects have some main attributes, and those is...

new Attribute (name)
{
this attribute is the object full name, the name in the object{}  structure can be just a reference to the full name, for example, the full name of an object can be "Shield of meduse rage in that night when the moon was red as blood and the sky was purple" but we can reefer him just as Shield of Medusa{}
}

new Attribute (type)
{
this is the main type of the object, like for example "wood"
}

{
new Attribute (hierarchy)
{
this attribute shows all the hierarchy of an object, like the hierarchy of the biological classification: specie>genus>family>order>>class>phylum>kingdom>domain(we can write in this way)
the bottom of the hierarchy is also the type of the material
}

new Attribute (weight)
{
this is the weight of the object, please, because this is a worldwide forum, put the full value, like 10 kg or 20 pounds
}

new Attribute (mold)
{
this is the general  way that the object look like, is not a role play attribute, is for the player itself know, so can be discussed
}

new attribute (size)
{
the object size, maybe in a general way, based in the squares in the inventory
}

new Attribute (level)
{
each transformation that a object suffer increase the level(not aways this is a good thing) the level 0 is a base object, a rat eye is a base object and its level is 0, a metal that you mane is also a level 0 object, but if you melt this to use to a sword we have a level 1 object, a sword can be level 2 or 3, or even more... in other words, each method add one level to the object, even the combining methods
}

new Attribute (compound)
{
this shows all objects that have origined the actual object, if we have a metal A and a metal B and combine the both, the metal C will have metal A and B as compound.
the compound lists by level, so if we fuse the metal C with a metal D and obtaing a metal E we will have this compound:
level 0:metal A,metal B;level 1:metal C,
this is another attribute that don't have direct influence
}

[draxavi]

9 - And what we do with the attributes?

Well, you transform those(that i call real attributes) in bonus attributes, like for example the hardness attribute can determine the resistance of a armor

10 - ok, and what more?

nothing more on this... now, i need to know what you think about the idea... and if you like it, we can discuss about it.
in that part, there a series of things to discuss...
we need to decide how we will organize the object hierarchy
we need to decide various attributes, independent of the objects that they aplly
we need to create the methods
i think we need much more, but i cant remember(and cant think) what we need, lol.

[khoridor]

Well, you spent much time describing some syntax, but I didn't get the point of it all.
What is the actual idea compared to what is already there in the game ? (objects do have attributes, and methods are there to transform them into other objects already).
Where do tools fit in your plan ?
What is the attribute "level" for ?
Is it supposed to be PS rewritten code? Or some scripting on top of it ? Or just a format to discuss crafting techniques ?

I'm afraid you lost me there. Maybe you could try to explain with a concrete example of how to use your idea (and keep the details for later).

[draxavi]

Is hard to give a good concrete example,but i will try...
Like i said is hard to explain...
Like i said, they dont have the real attributes, the real attributes are attributes of the object itself, the basic attributes listed dont change to much stuff(maybe the weight)
As a example of 2 real attributes i will use hardness and fuse point, attributes of a lot of objects, including metal materials.
So, you have the metal A, i dont know how measure something like hardness, but lets give a random number so metal A have hardness 50 and a common rock can have hardness 20
the fuse point is measured in Celsius , so lets suppose that metal A have the fuse point in 200 C
Those attributes change the bonuses and other stuffs, but not in a fix way, but will change using other stuff(to be discussed here to)
So, lets suppose that you use metal A to make a armor
If someone work on this metal, you have to transform it... So you use, i dont know, the melt() method, you just can work on metal A when you put it in a temperature that is at least, greater than 190 C(this is a parameter)
Now you have a new object, maybe this can change the attributes, you cant know when you try the first time.
Jumping the other steps, the armor can have a resistance based on the hardness of metal A and a fire resistance based on the fuse point.

The idea here is make a algorithm that use calculations based on the real attributes, this will give bonuses, but the coders will note know what is the results, they will make the formulas, and the rest will be live
(Ah, the crafter ability changes the results to)
 As a example i can give the hardness, lets suppose that hardness give (hardness*1.5) resistance, then the final object will be unpredictable because will have a algorithm to determine what will be the new hardness after a method, also, the hardness will not be the only thing that will contribute to the resistense(and will used in other stuffs)

thw weight can be used to determine the damage of a sword, and the sharpness to...

the tools fit everywhere, a furnace is a toll to apply some methods(the melt() for example)

the level dont have a real use, just to know how much times the objects was changed

ah, another thing about a process...
a process is like a blueprint, when you start to craft, you can open a plain process(or create a technic  that will be in the character "memory")
when you have the plain process you can record you steps, when recording, every step you do will be recorded in the plain process text...
Another player can take this process text and use, all he have to do is put the materials and get the tolls
One thing, a process can include just one fixed toll, like a furnace, because the process have to be "auto-maded"

With this crafting way, we will have people that research new objects and try new stuffs ad the people that craft, both influence the final results because the crafter ability change the results to, but in other way (he just give small variations in the attributes) also, every part of the game can be a profession, even someone that refine materials

All objects in all rpg game have attributes and methods, but they are in code level and we just see(or not) the bonuses. With this we will create a science inside the world, something like: hum... what happens if a fuse this two metals?

[verden]

That is really a lot of information, and with no context to how it relates to the system that is already in place. I am afraid most are not going to read through it all. There is an existing structure and way to describe the objects and steps in the crafting system. I would very much like to understand what is different in your above posts to what is already in place. Maybe nothing, maybe a number of things. There are two posts below that relate to the crafting system as it is. The crafting system as it is can be used as a template for making different crafts in game. I *think* that most of the concepts you detailed above are already there, but in order for the ideas to be useful, they must fit the structure of what is already there.

http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=34596.msg403985#msg403985
http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35181.msg404074#new

[draxavi]

And how are the attributes here? is like i said?
Also, the methods part is really there(sorry for that)
But the process(in the sense of something like a blueprint dont) those "blueprints" can auto configure
also, i think that those processes can use detailed parametes, like i said before
i just  want know if that things are there now:
Attributes of the real objects, like the hardness and the fuse point, this will creat researches
"blueprints of the process"
Methods parameters
Ty

[draxavi]

Well, i will ask that you forget the posts above, i will restart here:)

The main idea is to add what i called real attributes.
The players will no see the damage made by a sword, or the defense of an armor. Instead they will see the real attributes...
Lets take the example of a sword, the sword will have two attributes(as anything in the game) the gameplay attributes, that is the damage and etc(also bonuses,penalty, etc).
The real attributes will be sharpness, weight, hardness, fusion point.
So, those attributes can be seem if the player have the right knowledge, for example someone that knows how to craft a sword can say if its well sharpen or not.
The weight will also affect the damage, so in this example, the damage is based in the sharpness and in the weight.
The hardness helps in the resistance, so if the hardness of a sword of good, it will not break easily.
The fusion point can help in the fire resistance, so if the fusion point of the sword is 150 C, if you expose the sword to a higher temperature it will start to melt, so you use a magic that enhances the sword with fire, if the fire have, dont know, 100 C, will not melt the sword, but if its have 120 C or higher, the sword will melt.
But some real attributes help, and some have cons(and some have both)
A sword that is heavy cause more damage, but will be harder to carry.

This principle can be apllyed on everything.
In the materials, you can have the combustion for example, so a wood material will have high combustion and so is weak to fire, but some wood materials will be weaker than others.
The metal used in the sword that i referred above will have almost the same fusion point, so, i higher fusion point sword will have a good fire resistance, but also will be hard to work on the metal(because you have to use a furnace that can come in this temperature, if a metal have a melting point as 200 C you have to use a furnace that can burn in this temperature.

This can be applied in other things, like the magic, the fire will do x damage in the gameplay attribute, but what we will know is that he can get at 150 C and have y range...

Also, we can apply something like this even on status, but this is discussion for other topic.


Other idea is that the methods can have parameters, so, you put a metal on the furnace, you have to choose the temperature parameter, in cooking, you have to choose parameters like quantity and even cooking time.


In the end, this will not do great changes in gameplay level, but will do a lot of changes in roleplay level, also, we can create a live world with science and everything...
Some players will say, hum... i have to make i fire resistance armor, so i will use this metal here... or something like, hum... this is a very dense metal, i can do a heavy sword with this... and you can combine and apply methods in the materials, so you can create new materials, with give infinity possibilities of items, something like: what happens if i fuse those two metals? Y will not have sure, not even the coders, cause will use a algorithm that create new materials based on the methods parameters and base materials..


Ah! one last thing, if someone approve this idea, i think that we can put scientists in the staff, like physicists.

[verden]

Your ideas make plenty of sense, but are more practical in regards to coding a new system from the ground up. The attributes that you mention such as weight, sharpness, hardiness are already present in this system. They are weight, slash and quality. The point is that the process and attributes already exist and any changes have to be based on whatever is already in this system. The first step would be to identify what is already present with regards to your suggestions, how those attributes already affect other attributes... and then make a proposal for how to change this system. Good luck!

[draxavi]

SO, is that the reason that i created this topic, to chat about it... I am really at the begging, but i really think that some changes are more easy than others... But i will look trough the game and i will back here later, but thanks!