Author Topic: Crafting or the 'New Realism'  (Read 5814 times)

Prolix

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Re: Crafting or the 'New Realism'
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2009, 08:28:33 pm »
I assure you things have been changing between releases and that is what this thread is about. Bovek has been working on a lot of the crafting issues and things are slowly improving. That said, a lot of the issues you talk about, Mythryndel, remain. The reward for crafting is not in line with the cost. I do not personally buy ore, I mine my own. I might buy gold to smelt but nobody mines it as platinum is more worthwhile. As far as endless hammering goes, it never grabbed me as worthwhile except for the practice. Now you do that before quenching for the practice. It doesn't seem to matter, the assembly stage sets the final quality and yes, it can vary quite a bit. I have never made a q300 weapon nor have I ever used one.

As far as I can tell training blades means making knives and sword handles until they stop giving practice. This can be done with the same set of ingots as long as you never take the step of no return, quenching the red hot knife blade. sword handles can be turned back into ingots by hammering while super heated. I never try to maximize my raw material quality, it does not seem to matter.

There is at least one quest that required someone to craft sabres as they do not appear to be available from npcs anymore, and the dev team seems satisfied with this situation so there will likely be more

Conversation always interrupts training. Typing takes time and concentration.

weltall

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Re: Crafting or the 'New Realism'
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2009, 06:01:08 am »
i can assure you a lot of work has been done on those points and will soon (tm) be available :)

Mythryndel

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Re: Crafting or the 'New Realism'
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2009, 08:52:45 am »
I look forward to see it in-game!!

Elvors

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Re: Crafting or the 'New Realism'
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2009, 05:10:43 pm »
I know I'm jumping in late, but I have been collecting data on the "exciting new things". Getting the facts straight before talking if you wish.

1) Scrap realism. Becoming a true master in any craft takes a decade or two in real life.

2) Maximize fun. Maxing anything is utterly boring at this time, and forces players who want to play a good smith into months of mind-dumbing repetitive tasks. (Same goes for excellent fighters or mages.)

3) Training is a solo thing. This is a multiplayer game, so the time spent for training is lost time to interact with other players.

Then there are the things specific to crafting:

A) Shortening the heating times was irrelevant. You can always heat while hammering. (Not too unrealistic, too.)

B) Shortening the hammering times for some intermediate steps is helpful, but it was just a 20% decrease for a full cycle. While it's nice to train faster by 20%, it doesn't change much for the basic problems.

C) As has been said before, initial quality is irrelevant. Let's say the quality of an intermediate stage if determined by the previous stage's quality at 40%, the crafter's skill at 40%, and by chance at 20% (just inventing some numbers here, the real numbers are different but not too far off). Just for the delta blade after two steps, the initial quality is down to a relevance of 6.4%. The final blade is still several steps ahead, drowning out the initial quality to irrelevance.

D) The random factors are far too high. If the chance of mucking up your blade at any stage are 10%, this means you have a 90% change of success (or at least not losing your work). Making a blade is five(?) steps that influence quality, so which means you have a chance of 0.9^5=0.59=59% of getting through without fouling up.
Fouling up isn't the end of the world as you can take a fouled-up blade and rehammer it, but it's still not fun. Particularly since you have to spend two minutes just to heat up the darned mistake and hammer it back to something that has a mere chance of becoming something useful.
The random factors also totally swamp out the difference between a level and the next. At one time, an increase of one level in blacksmithing and axemaking would increase the average end result's quality by 10, but you don't notice that if the random factors make the blades vary by 50 points. So increasing a crafting skill denies people the positive feedback of having achieved something - it's not unusual to make 10 blades at a new level and find that the average quality dropped by 10 (happened to me more than once, though the level after that would then usually give me a plus of 30, re-establishing the +10 per level overall).

E) I see shield making being compared to weapon crafting. I thing that's grotesquely wrong; you should really compare it with metallurgy training.
There, I can juggle twelve of sixteen ingots at a time, and gain another point of skill as quickly as I can move an ingot from furnace to stock casting and vice versa. It's mind-numbing, it's giving you RSI, but after a few weeks of grind, you have it.
That was just the right level of a barrier: more than you'd like, but not so much that you regret having done it after you're over with it.
If shield making is worse than weapon crafting, then shield making is far too difficult by at least an order of magnitude.
IMHO and YMMV etc.

/me steps down from his soap box, bows and vanishes in the crowd.

Tharos

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Re: Crafting or the 'New Realism'
« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2009, 05:46:41 am »
D) The random factors are far too high. If the chance of mucking up your blade at any stage are 10%, this means you have a 90% change of success (or at least not losing your work). Making a blade is five(?) steps that influence quality, so which means you have a chance of 0.9^5=0.59=59% of getting through without fouling up.
Random factors have another, more serious flaw. The server has only one pseudo-random number generator and by specifying that you should have 10% chance of mucking up your blade, the rule is applied to the large number of crafters, not to an individual crafter. If, for example, players A, B and C all start making a blade, they all together have a 10% chance of mucking up the blade meaning that out of 30 events there are 3 that would fail. Unfortunately there is no rule saying that the failures should spread out evenly to all the players and the player A may get all 3 failures leading to frustration and confusion why the chances are not working properly.

See also http://www.gamedev.net/reference/design/features/randomness/ for some ideas how it could be done better.
- Tharos - citizen of the Death Realm
Shadow General in the Dark Empire

weltall

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Re: Crafting or the 'New Realism'
« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2009, 07:54:42 am »
D) The random factors are far too high. If the chance of mucking up your blade at any stage are 10%, this means you have a 90% change of success (or at least not losing your work). Making a blade is five(?) steps that influence quality, so which means you have a chance of 0.9^5=0.59=59% of getting through without fouling up.
Random factors have another, more serious flaw. The server has only one pseudo-random number generator and by specifying that you should have 10% chance of mucking up your blade, the rule is applied to the large number of crafters, not to an individual crafter. If, for example, players A, B and C all start making a blade, they all together have a 10% chance of mucking up the blade meaning that out of 30 events there are 3 that would fail. Unfortunately there is no rule saying that the failures should spread out evenly to all the players and the player A may get all 3 failures leading to frustration and confusion why the chances are not working properly.

See also http://www.gamedev.net/reference/design/features/randomness/ for some ideas how it could be done better.

actually it's shared among any action using randomness including mining, attacking... so this makes the pseudo random number generator a bit more random as it has a random variable getting in: numbers of times the random generation is called as a pseudo random generator usually takes the next number from the precedent status in such an enviroment you get in a real random variable: the players. Additionally the distribution used is supposed to rarely hit the two extremes and tend to be in the middle but this is also managed by a variable which is global to the specific crafting technique (what the books are called). For example did anyone notice metallurgy has less slags now than before? at level 100 you get a number of them near 0 if not zero.

Mythryndel

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Re: Crafting or the 'New Realism'
« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2009, 11:57:28 am »
...Additionally the distribution used is supposed to rarely hit the two extremes and tend to be in the middle but this is also managed by a variable which is global to the specific crafting technique (what the books are called). For example did anyone notice metallurgy has less slags now than before? at level 100 you get a number of them near 0 if not zero.

This is a VERY welcome change! Hope I can find some time to get back in-game soon to see all of these improvements first-hand.

Elvors

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Re: Crafting or the 'New Realism'
« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2009, 05:29:03 pm »
I don't think the distribution of randomness matters that much. Randomness as such plays a far too large role IMHO, at least for crafting.
Both because it's frustrating, and because it makes the quality of the first crafting steps almost irrelevant.

Of course, that's just one of the many points I raised above. I hope they'll get considered, if only at a "we don't think so because..." level.

Mythryndel

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Re: Crafting or the 'New Realism'
« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2009, 08:27:36 pm »
Trust me, it matters. Maybe not as much as other things... but it does. It sucks when you have been smelting silver for 30 levels... and you slag half a batch just because your random chance called in its marker.

The other thing, related to this, that I would like to see... is the random chance being affected by the difficulty of the item in question. Once you can smelt Gold, it has the same slag chance as you had when you first started with Iron, but Iron should be relatively easy for you and slag significantly less often. As part of this though, I would like to get greater credit toward advancing from more difficult crafting items... smelting/casting Gold ore/ingots would give more credit toward the next level than Iron...

But I've been around for a while... and I will hopefully get back in-game soon... so... I can wait a while longer... :)

bloodedIrishman

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Re: Crafting or the 'New Realism'
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2009, 07:34:21 pm »
Crafting should be long, ardous and difficult, not annoyingly so but for a couple reasons that come to mind. Firstly, crafting is very rewarding in the end result and secondly I remember too many people spamming one button while using another client to mine. The latter is then reduced and the first is even more rewarding with the new system.

Uosdwis

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Re: Crafting or the 'New Realism'
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2009, 05:29:32 pm »
Crafting should be long, ardous and difficult, not annoyingly so but for a couple reasons that come to mind. Firstly, crafting is very rewarding in the end result and secondly I remember too many people spamming one button while using another client to mine. The latter is then reduced and the first is even more rewarding with the new system.

(I know the player who started this thread is a master sword and axe crafter... so maybe pay a bit of attention to what he was saying ::) )

Work in real life is "long, arduous and difficult". We play games to get away from that. Games should be fun. I have never heard anyone refer to crafting in PlaneShift as fun.

So what if it is rewarding in the end? If it is too tedious and time consuming to see actual results, most players will never do it long enough to see any reward.
What I am referring to is the lack of obvious progression in quality from level to level. At level 1 sword-making it is possible to craft blades of 150Q... at level 10 (after many hours of tedious click, move, click) it is still quite likely to make swords under 100Q. The flaws in the random system that Elvors and Tharos pointed out, coupled with the length of time involved and extreme repetitiveness of the tasks, serve to effectively discourage most players who would otherwise enjoy roleplaying a crafter.

I do not see how this will reduce people mining while crafting. It is entirely possible to switch to the "mining alt" during any stage of crafting (except perhaps heating in the forge or furnace).
I am not even going to start here about what should be changed with metallurgy, to avoid dragging this thread too far  :offtopic:
Just giving you what you wanted.
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bloodedIrishman

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Re: Crafting or the 'New Realism'
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2009, 07:39:28 pm »
Crafting should be long, ardous and difficult, not annoyingly so but for a couple reasons that come to mind. Firstly, crafting is very rewarding in the end result and secondly I remember too many people spamming one button while using another client to mine. The latter is then reduced and the first is even more rewarding with the new system.

(I know the player who started this thread is a master sword and axe crafter... so maybe pay a bit of attention to what he was saying ::) )

Work in real life is "long, arduous and difficult". We play games to get away from that. Games should be fun. I have never heard anyone refer to crafting in PlaneShift as fun.

So what if it is rewarding in the end? If it is too tedious and time consuming to see actual results, most players will never do it long enough to see any reward.
What I am referring to is the lack of obvious progression in quality from level to level. At level 1 sword-making it is possible to craft blades of 150Q... at level 10 (after many hours of tedious click, move, click) it is still quite likely to make swords under 100Q. The flaws in the random system that Elvors and Tharos pointed out, coupled with the length of time involved and extreme repetitiveness of the tasks, serve to effectively discourage most players who would otherwise enjoy roleplaying a crafter.

I do not see how this will reduce people mining while crafting. It is entirely possible to switch to the "mining alt" during any stage of crafting (except perhaps heating in the forge or furnace).
I am not even going to start here about what should be changed with metallurgy, to avoid dragging this thread too far  :offtopic:





The author listed the steps, and called it a pain in the but. I then responded by saying its clearly a pain in the butt, and not so bad because of the reasons I listed. La-te-da-te-da. :sorcerer:

Uosdwis

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Re: Crafting or the 'New Realism'
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2009, 10:30:01 pm »
...and I explained, clearly, that the reward is not worth the effort for most. You also failed to explain how it will reduce multi-clienting (such as for mining). However, thank you for re-posting my entire response to your original vague and unfounded comment; this gives people the option of reading it, in all it's glory, twice in a row.  ;D
Just giving you what you wanted.
Are you sure you like it?

Madoring

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Re: Crafting or the 'New Realism'
« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2010, 01:36:27 pm »
Update:  The new prices for steels stock and swords....AWESOME.  it really makes it worth while to be crafter now.  I never really had any problem with the crafting process, just the money .  Now, I'm happy.

Thank you.

Nivm

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Re: Crafting or the 'New Realism'
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2010, 05:53:30 am »
And after reading through this thread and thinking about it as I went, the above post confirms any collected information as trash. At least I can be sure the grinding element hasn't changed.