The subject of what a roleplaying game exactly 'is'

[Under the moon]

So PvP would be better called CvC (character vs character) in the world of roleplaying. Semantics, sure, but then, most people playing WoW think they are playing an RPG.

mod's note:  split from http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35249.0

[Prolix]

WOW is a role playing game. I sure wish you people would get off your high horse and stop pretending that because the roles you choose to play appear to use a little more imagination that this game is any different from another role playing game. It is like getting into one of those artsy AD&D  pen and paper games and never going off on adventure, instead sitting around the table and swapping lies about that adventure you went on that never really happened between rounds of Row Row Row Your Boat or Michael Row The Boat Ashore.

Call this a Play Acting Game if you really do not like the conventions of the genre as they are.

Inter-player conflict can be as simple as one guy sitting around saying another's name every minute or two until he says "what" and then replying "nothing" and continuing this annoying behavior. Of course this would likely cause a /report. This might be common in a guild-house for example. In any group of people there is always one person who amuses himself at other peoples expense.

[Garile]

*eyes Prolix*

roleplaying game as term has been used by those tabletopgames way before World of Warcraft or similar games used the term.

So is that a high horse we are sitting upon? When we notice that games like World of Warcraft no longer seem to have the same goal as what in my eyes is a real roleplayinggame?

In World of Warcraft they have roleplaying servers. Doesn't that automaticly mean that the other servers are NOT servers where roleplaying is the goal of the game?

Mind you there is nothing wrong with World of Warcraft as a game, but it is not literally an RPG and that is something Blizzard knows and wouldn't want it any other way becuase if it was literally a roleplaying game there wouldn't be milions of people playing it.

Anyhow this is awfully oftopic

I think PVP has the combat stamp on it so if you want to talk about a broader picture it's best to mention that but a different term might be a bit overkill

[Prolix]

It is funny you should ask. I just came back from Cangames, the oldest game convention in Canada. It has been around since the seventies as has the Dungeons and Dragons franchise, possibly the original role playing game. The word I hear from there is that AD&D 4th edition is being criticized for becoming too much like World of Warcraft in its game system. Really strange if WOW isn't a role playing game, no? It has long evolved from its origins but still has to be considered a role playing game.

As for PVP being role play, in the pen and paper role playing PVP was greatly discouraged in most serious campaign because if the players were always fighting amongst themselves the Dungeon Master's hard work setting up the world went to waste and the players got really upset. That doesn't mean there was no manoeuvring or underhanded tricks for characters to get ahead of their teammates but it was Us against Them -- but me first! The first computer RPG games that came out were single player and very much like The Elder Scrolls franchise, Oblivion, Morrowind, Arena et al. They too were mostly based on D&D, Pool of Radiance in spectacular EGA graphics for instance. In those games you had no PVP not only because they were single player but you couldn't attack anyone in your party.

Early attempts to allow multiplayer in role playing games were basically the single player game with additional users allowed to join the party, the story line remained the same with the game host playing the main character and being the focus, the others were support.

The first MMORPG I played, not including text only Multi-User Dungeons (MUDS) popular on BBS systems, was called "The 4th Coming" making its debut in 1999. It is still around, more or less. PVP was a big problem because lots of people like nothing better than to pick on weaker players. There wasn't too much play acting there but some people still tried to make character the predominant focus in RPG so this is not a new quandary we are trying to deal with. It was dealt with in a number of ways, open PVP, level limited PVP, specific PVP regions. Ultimately it was decided by the people running each server.

 You are right though, the term PVP was coined to describe Player vs Player combat and not any other kind of interaction.

[zanzibar]

Prolix, games can have similar mechanics while also being different kinds of games.

[Garile]

OK Prolix if you feel World of Warcraft should be called a roleplaying game explain to me how it is a roleplaying game.

I mean the definition itself isn't some fancy words it's simply a game where you should play a role.

Now look at World of Warcraft and lay it next to lets say Doom. If Doom were remade multiplayer you could basicly use the same mechanics as World of Warcraft throwing on some different skins.

role-play
 
to assume the attitudes, actions, and discourse of (another), esp. in a make-believe situation

Now as Zanzibar said the mechanics can still be the same but you can still have a different goal with a game so lets look how the people play the game. hmmm nope I have played WoW for months and not a single incharacter comment. Most quests are basicly just killing stuff just like Doom so...... only difference is that it's fantasy

If you ask on a WoW forum "what would be a fun role to play" people will recomend you to play tank or dps or healer depending.

That is why World of Warcraft and games alike aren't true roleplaying games even if they might be thrown in the same group becuase it is fantasybased and you play one character.

Dungeons and Dragons 4th edition has indeed mechanicwise moved more towards WoW although it's hardly one on one. You can be for or against that but it doesn't change that the mechnics are only a tool to play a game where you asume the role of someone with a background and whom you hope changes with the choices you make.

In Wow you play a paladin. Dot-Stop-Don't ask more. Did he have parents? Why did he become a paladin? Try asking that to a few people on wow. Besides on the RPrealms you will probably just be looked at as strange. Wow isn't about character development, it's about leveling, killing baddies and having the ubergear.

[neko kyouran]

In Wow you play a paladin. Dot-Stop-Don't ask more. Did he have parents? Why did he become a paladin? Try asking that to a few people on wow. Besides on the RPrealms you will probably just be looked at as strange. Wow isn't about character development, it's about leveling, killing baddies and having the ubergear.

WoW's storyline and the reason that characters are there is far more in depth than anything that PS has.  Novels upon novels have been made and released by Blizzard detailing a massive amount of lore.  The online version is chalk full of lore with every quest you do. 

The difference between WoW and PS is that PS, the player has to make up all the events and RP arcs they do in game, whereas in WoW, from the moment your character is created you're being thrown into the lore of that game and you chose to either follow along with it as you quest, group, and travel the world, or you simply choose to ignore it all and bash endlessly away on monsters and never experience 90% of the game's content. 

That sounds no different from what happens in PS.  If PS was different, then why is there a new thread made every month about how players that only grind away in the mines or "powerleveling" their toon's skills are ruining the game?

Don't bash a game unless you know what you're talking about.  The term 'Roleplaying' has many different definitions.  Just because you don not approve of someone else's definition, does not make their definition wrong.

I've been with this project for 5+ years now, and just as long, have I played WoW, both the MMO and the RTS series created before it. In the MMO, I'm ranked in the top 20 out of 25k toons on that server, on the oldest server Blizzard has had up and running since the beginning of the MMO's initial release.  In PS, my characters have been involved with nearly every major event this game has had thus far, but because once people find out who the player is behind a certain character, every time they meet another character they know that is being controlled by that same player, they treat all the characters the same, even when the characters are vastly different, I choose long ago to never reveal any of my characters' names.   

I've seen people come and go, in both games.  Guilds are forged, and guilds are disbanded.  Both games have players/characters that are known and recognized and looked up to. 

The only difference between PS and WoW, is that in PS, there is a very vocal minority that wants the game to simply be a 3d chat room where they can sit endlessly in a tavern talking away tales of great adventure to their friends, rather than going out and actually playing the game and actually doing said adventures.

If you don't want to call WoW a roleplaying game, then I don't believe you can call PS one either.  You might as well call PS a 'sit around in a virtual world telling tall tales to try and impress everyone else with your vast imagination' game.

Oh and, to back up my claims with fact;
link to my WoW character:  http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Whisperwind&n=Kintwo
link to my toon's ranking: http://wow-achievements.com/Person.aspx?region=US&Realm=whisperwind&Name=kintwo (overall ranking is out of all players in the world; currently 11.5 million players.  Regional ranking is just North America, realm ranking is just out of players on the server I play on; currently about 25 thousand players.)

[Prolix]

Thank you neko.
To be more specific the reason these are role playing games is that your character starts at a base level and grows its abilities as you go along. In a first person shooter the only advancement you generally get is new equipment. There are hybrid games that are more one than another but the main focus of the RPG is the character growth. Every pen and paper RPG out there has rules for ability advancement it is is in the context of them that the other character facets are hung. Even if you add no flourish to your in character interactions you are still role playing. When you are talking to the huge ancient Gold dragon being played by the Dungeon Master you can put on your outrageous accent, you can shiver and stutter or you can just talk normally but in all cases your are playing the role of your character trying to achieve your characters goals. The stuff you call Role Playing is the icing on the cake. It is nice to have and adds to the experience but you do not eat it out of the can, generally speaking.

Character development is what makes role playing games role playing games and how it is expressed by the game mechanics is what constitutes the game. What you add to your character outside of that is extra and must be because not everyone has the same ability to sparkle. By insisting that the sparkle is the game you are being elitist every bit as much the power leveller that wants to max his character and P0wn your ass. That is what I meant by being on a high horse.

By the way I have never played WOW but I have seen it and it has all the hall marks of a traditional RPG as far as I can tell. All the same there are WOW RP servers where you get to add that sparkle aren't there?

[Garile]

Thanks Neko for making this a different thread seeing we were definately going a different direction there

First of I know World of Warcraft. I have played it for months and have a level 80 character and have plenty of friends that play it aswell.

I think you make some good points but I already conceded that the *mechanics* are a lot alike. So that means most of your post is just repeating what Prolix already said.

I also agree there is a lot of merchandising around World of Warcraft and I also agree it is *possible* that you have an immersive roleplaying experience using this merchandising. My point however is that it isn't used ingame by the players.

The question however is why call World of Warcraft a roleplayinggame.

I point again to what the dictionary says roleplaying is. To assume the attitudes, actions, and discourse of (another), esp. in a make-believe situation. A roleplaying game should thus be a game where you do this.

World of Warcraft has quest aswell, but give me a game that doesn't have missions and objectives. That doesn't make it a roleplaying game either.

Leveling is mentioned but how is that roleplaying in WoW? You can't even chose what stat goes up. You can pretty much only chose what weapon to use.

Do your choices affect how you level? No. Do your choices change how a Quest ends? No. Do most people have an IC reason to slay Booty Bay?

The only difference between PS and WoW, is that in PS, there is a very vocal minority that wants the game to simply be a 3d chat room where they can sit endlessly in a tavern talking away tales of great adventure to their friends, rather than going out and actually playing the game and actually doing said adventures.

Becuase I roleplay I don't level? Becuase I feel mechanics are a tool and not the goal I don't use them?

Anyhow I tottally disagree with that this is the only difference.
First of in PS you have a lot of choice in making your character. Your leveling is not set the minute you chose a class.
Second you can't run around with names like "LukeSKYwalker 853" or have guildnames like "Why can't I skin a Tauren"
Third we even have rules that you have to be IC ingame.
Fourth we have GMs that actually start events with the whole goal of to roleplay.

Character development is what makes role playing games role playing games

I totally agree. You just seem to think leveling is character development. Don't misunderstand me. It can be part of characterdevelopment. It can even be very important, but just leveling especially if you can't chose anything when leveling is not character development

character development is a term taken from books and it means that the character changes compared to when you first met him. Now I think it is pretty obvious they don't use it to describe leveling in a book.

Anyhow to conclude. My opinion is that you can't call a game where you do not roleplay a Roleplaying game.

[Prolix]

Hmm character class, say Paladin, is not a role you play? Will your Paladin become a better Paladin if all he does is sing songs in a tavern? No he has to go out and do Paladin type things. Do Paladins get different quests than the Druid, Shaman or Warlock? or all the quests the same for all characters? I'm guessing that while some may be common to all classes others are targeted to your class. Perhaps that is wrong but in any event how you complete it will depend on your characters abilities. The Paladin is more likely to hack and slash while the warlock is more likely to blast and sizzle.

You seem to be confusing how you play your character with if you have a character to play. The main difference between WOW and PS appears to be that WOW has predefined roles to play and in PS you make it up as you go along.

[Illysia]

Character development is what makes role playing games role playing games and how it is expressed by the game mechanics is what constitutes the game.

I have to disagree, its not just character development. For example, you could have an old codger of a character that is set in his ways and is always the same basically. This would still be a role playing character. The defining part is the character to character interaction (of any kind) that can or cannot lead to character development. After all, you can gradually change your character over time without it being due to character interaction(you just feel like changing an aspect of the character), but it's not the same thing. And you character that doesn't change but affects changes in other characters based on their interacting with that one.

The only difference between PS and WoW, is that in PS, there is a very vocal minority that wants the game to simply be a 3d chat room where they can sit endlessly in a tavern talking away tales of great adventure to their friends, rather than going out and actually playing the game and actually doing said adventures.

That being the case, it doesn't diminish the value of sitting around talking. The game is open ended, therefore just bashing away in a set role is no more valid than sitting around talking about your profession over a beer. There is more to sitting around talking in the tavern than making up tales. Often those talking about such things are talking about things they have done in game using game mechanics. People so tied to text that they don't ever do anything are probably RPing on a forum, not playing a graphic RPG. At least not nowadays.




Honestly, I think before you can talk about what a Role playing game is, you have to differentiate between levels of immersion and what that games requires immersionwise. For instance, one of the best games I have ever seen for RP was Puzzle Pirates back when I first started playing it. It is not an RP game, however, people rarely talked about non puzzle pirates things, they spoken in as piratey language as they could, and all contributed to the pirating venture by doing their jobs (bilging, sailing, navigating, etc). It has never truly been considered an RPG although it was. The difference is the level of immersion. It's not quite like that now but it proves the point. Whether it is player enforced, game mechanics enforced, GM enforced or whatever you can't define the role play aspect without considering the level of immersion.

WoW is an RPG, it is not as rigid as PS. But techincally it counts, could you build up the level of RPing there, sure, but you can do that for PS as well. It's probably best to define RPing within the context of individual games rather than defining it separately. It's too vast a concept.

[Garile]

No time for a long reply this time I'm afraid

Prolix I'm reading your post but again you seem to be tapping around the question I basicly asked in the first post so I'll make it very simple so it's not clouded.

RPG = Roleplaying game

Roleplaying = to assume the attitudes, actions, and discourse of (another), esp. in a make-believe situation

Do you roleplay in WoW? In all your posts so far you have never said yes to that. All your arguments pretty much proof me right that you do not.

How is it then strange to say something isn't a true RPG if there is basicly no roleplaying in it?

[neko kyouran]

I play a mage in WoW.

Every time I log on, I assume the role of long range caster-adventurer setting out to extinguish my foes. I hurl great balls of fire from my very fingertips and watch as my enemies are engulfed and then consumed by the power I wield.  My armor may be cloth, but I slay most enemies before they can even touch me.  My class is one of the pure damage dealing classes.  I stand in the back behind the big warriors and protect the healers from getting hit.  I am loved by all for my abilities in combat and also my non combat spells; such as the ability to conjure food and water when ever I feel like it, or create portals to major cities from anywhere else in the world for quick and easy transportation access.

~~~~~~~~~~~

I certainly can't do this in real life.  Does that not mean I am roleplaying?

[Garile]

Well I can barely call it roleplaying if the whole of your character can surmized in one word "mage" just like thousands of other people now can I?

Roleplaying is something the player does, not something the mechanics do.

The roles you can chose in World of Warcraft are purely mechanic to make it so not everyone can do the same and create teamwork.

The idea of that choice might have come from roleplaying games it doesn't mean just by having that one choice you are roleplaying.

It's a stereotype at best not a character.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Lol, not this again!

Wow is an rpg. I don't think the most vocal forum users want rpg to be defined by wow, unfortunately "reality" is a construction of consensus, and there are more wow players. There are now millions of screaming teenies that believe rpg = wow. The couple hundred ps players can try to argue with them if they want, but that's kinda like me trying to conquer China with a spork.  

I hope that one day Fragnetics server can be a home to the kind of rp Illysia describes.

We've tried for years to grow the game catering to "the vocal minority." I know the settings team has gone well out of its way to accommodate the rp crowd and will continue to do so. The gm team is DEFINED by rp here (for laanx anyway), our gms are actually expected to host rp events and gain greater access via better rp (also responsibility, presence, helpfulness etc).

Player numbers are way down, rp (as argued for here) alone will never bolster the game or speed its development pace.

I feel that ps painted itself into a corner with the rp obsession and supported the advent of the new lax server to try to preserve the safe haven for rpers while not turning off the more typical type of player. Growing the player base is fundamentally important here because the simple majority of our devs "graduated" out of the game and into the making of the game. I see it simply: more players = more devs = more game. The PS team will always support roleplaying but we've got a good mix of different opinions on what PS should be within the team and our discussion on these issues is quite lively. I bring your opinions to the team and it does influence content.

I really don't think we need to define what a roleplaying game exactly is, we all know.