Anti-magic Revisited

[PhoenixRizin]

I am posting this in response to an old locked thread
http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=8319.0

I am interested in the progress of anit-magic in Planeshift. As a swordsman, I find that even with high fighting stats it appears quite difficult to fight even the most meager of mages, as ranged magic spells make it difficult to get close enough to use my own advantages.

So firstly, I wanted to know where magic resistance is currently in terms of development (and perhaps I may be missing something in my own training that would assist in this). Also, I like the ideas in the afformentioned thread (5 years old but still relevant I think). Perhaps leveling in each way adds to resistance to that kind of magic.

And one final thought. I notice that magic is not bound by walls or any other objects in its immediate path. I understand that its magic and could simply move around or possibly through objects, but want to suggest that maybe this leads to lesser damage than say a straight on attack.

I'm interested in everyone's thoughts.

[Lanarel]

And one final thought. I notice that magic is not bound by walls or any other objects in its immediate path. I understand that its magic and could simply move around or possibly through objects, but want to suggest that maybe this leads to lesser damage than say a straight on attack.

The problem there is to find out there is a wall in between in the first place. This would require a major effort to add code to make the server aware of geometry when casting a spell.

[PhoenixRizin]

I understand...and i'm sure there are more pressing concerns than the wall thing. I moreso brought this topic up for stat defense rather than environment defense. Just something to think about later.

[Lanarel]

Besides magic and all other things not being balanced very well yet (which is slowly getting better): anti-magic is not yet implemented (it does nothing if you even can train it) and fights will be balanced more when other ranged weapons (such as bows) will be working.

[PhoenixRizin]

Thanks for the update!

[BlueScreenJunky]

And one final thought. I notice that magic is not bound by walls or any other objects in its immediate path. I understand that its magic and could simply move around or possibly through objects, but want to suggest that maybe this leads to lesser damage than say a straight on attack.

The problem there is to find out there is a wall in between in the first place. This would require a major effort to add code to make the server aware of geometry when casting a spell.

Sure it's a problem, but it will have to be adressed sooner or later (for bows and stuff like that). Besides, I think the server is already aware of the level geometry in order to do collisions between characters and objects, so if you can prevent a character from going through a wall, it is surely possible to prevent an arrow or a fireball to do so.

As far as anti-magic and balance between mages and warriors is concerned, I think it's too soon to get worried since all the mechanics are not implemented yet, but I'm not sure anti-magic is the way to go for swordsmen : I can't really see how someone could be knowledgeable enough to protect her/himself against magic, but not to actually cast a spell...
I can see more realistic ways for a fighter to fight a mage, for example :
-His physical strength/endurance and armor allows him to resist a few spells while approaching the mage, and then strike him with his sword, which would be deadlier to the mage if he's physically weaker.
-He could rely on a magician in his party to either protect him with some kind of anti magic, or keep the enemy mage busy.
-He could have some special ability like a forward dash, which would enable him to move faster, and maybe take less damage (or be more difficult to hit) while doing so.


I'm not saying a swordsman can't use anti-magic if he has some training in magic, but I think it would be more fun if there was a way to defeat a mage by using only physical abilities.

[zanzibar]

Sure it's a problem, but it will have to be adressed sooner or later (for bows and stuff like that). Besides, I think the server is already aware of the level geometry in order to do collisions between characters and objects, so if you can prevent a character from going through a wall, it is surely possible to prevent an arrow or a fireball to do so.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but arrows and fireballs aren't objects in PlaneShift.... they're just animations.  Does that complicate things?

It would be interesting if arrows and fireballs were actual projectiles to be thrown and dodged.  It would change a lot of things - some things for the better, some things for the worse.

As far as anti-magic and balance between mages and warriors is concerned, I think it's too soon to get worried since all the mechanics are not implemented yet, but I'm not sure anti-magic is the way to go for swordsmen : I can't really see how someone could be knowledgeable enough to protect her/himself against magic, but not to actually cast a spell...

I think it depends on what kind of spells are introduced to the game.  If there's a spell that makes one cowardly for instance, if someone is particularly brave they might be more resistant to it.  I typically think of knights and the sort as brave, sometimes to the point of being brash, whereas mages I typically think of being the more intellectual sort who believe in fighting smarter not harder.  (It's an untrue generalization, I recognize there are many ignoble knights and many brave mages.)

I can see more realistic ways for a fighter to fight a mage, for example :
-His physical strength/endurance and armor allows him to resist a few spells while approaching the mage, and then strike him with his sword, which would be deadlier to the mage if he's physically weaker.
-He could rely on a magician in his party to either protect him with some kind of anti magic, or keep the enemy mage busy.
-He could have some special ability like a forward dash, which would enable him to move faster, and maybe take less damage (or be more difficult to hit) while doing so.

I'm not saying a swordsman can't use anti-magic if he has some training in magic, but I think it would be more fun if there was a way to defeat a mage by using only physical abilities.

[kaerli2]

As far as defeating mages using swordplay goes, Kaerli's simple solution is to rain blows down on the poor mage such that he or she can't get a spell off without taking hits!  Unless you're Alliva or the likes and can use good swordplay on your part to set up opportunities for spells, you're in trouble...

[Vornne]

Sure it's a problem, but it will have to be adressed sooner or later (for bows and stuff like that). Besides, I think the server is already aware of the level geometry in order to do collisions between characters and objects, so if you can prevent a character from going through a wall, it is surely possible to prevent an arrow or a fireball to do so.

The collision detection isn't server side, it's client side at the moment. Server side collision detection is very tricky to get right if you want the game to be relatively free from the effects of 'lag'; you only have to run beside another player for a reasonable distance to see them sliding all over the place. The server currently leaves the clients to do the movement, but has an anti-cheat module which checks up periodically.

The separate 'npcclient' program which handles the AI (AS) of the NPCs on the other hand does load the maps and do collision detection, just in case anyone wondered. To be totally precise, the server does need and load the maps; but only on start up to figure out how the map portals connect.

[PhoenixRizin]

Just another idea to throw in here, how about making the Will stat directly affect how magic affects someone. Someone who is strong willed would be able to resist the spells more. And this would also explain the whole anti-magic but not knowing magic idea. They would just be metally tough enough to handle it better than someone who has a weak spirit. And thinking about it, int (the other stat that affects magic in terms of MP) could also raise magic defense.

[Zalera13]

Shouldn't having training in Anti-magic make if difficult to cast spells?

[PhoenixRizin]

And one more idea inspired by Zalera13's post....

So maybe WILL and INT can deaden the effects of magic, but make training antimagic as a stat can be a double edged sword...in that you resist attack spells, but also healing spells, so someone with high antimagic could only use herbal remedies and some potions...physical things.

[Mordraugion]

Anti-Magic is just that anti all forms of magic offensive, defensive and healing and yes the more you train anti-magic the harder it should become to train all ways of magic until the obvious happens, maxed in one negates all abilities in the other.

[zanzibar]

Anti-Magic is just that anti all forms of magic offensive, defensive and healing and yes the more you train anti-magic the harder it should become to train all ways of magic until the obvious happens, maxed in one negates all abilities in the other.

Weird.  I can understand that with Kran, if it's just a general immunity to magic.  But anti-magic could also mean spells that counter other spells, which would mean you'd be actively practicing magic... I guess that's not the case.  "Walk in darkness to see better in the light" doesn't apply here.

[Zalera13]

I imagined Anti-Magic as a sort of passive form of magic immunity or resistance. A percentage or something. EX at level X of Anti-Magic you only take X% of damge, an healing, any spell cast also costs X% more mana and mental stamina. Also possibly reduced duration of certain spells. OR you could have some counter spells and anti-mage spells EX Mage casts a spell and sends a fire ball at you. you use a counter spell to counter or neutralize the spell. Or spells that reduce mana, mental stamina, or render target in able to use magic. Counter spells only affect other spells.