Roleplaying and Intervention of Gamemasters

[Sulaika]

Hi Planeshift-Players and Gamemasters.

I have a question or want to know your opinion about intervene of a Gamemaster. For example there are two experienced players. One player is evil the other is good. The evil person wants to trade with the good person for example the evil person wants to buy a weapon of the good person. Before the good person had a problem with evil person. I mean they are roleplaying this. Then the good person thinks about to fool the evil person and sells him bad weapon for a high price. Evil person believes that good person and buys the weapon. Later he finds out he was fooled by the other person. Now he runs to a Gamemaster and asks for help. Gamemaster arrogates the other person to give him the money back.   
But i think wouldnt it be better if the Gamemaster says: "Ok look first by yourself, find an own solution through roleplaying for this." For example if the evil person has a guild they could all follow the good guy and arrogate the money from him back. So actually i dont like that Gamemasters so fast intervene in Game. If its cheating and stuff its clear and its ok, but if its like that its more his own fault. I mean the fault of the evil person. He could informed hisself better about the weapon before he bought it. If he dont know he could ask before other players either. Actually its his own misfortune. If it would be a new player it would be little different maybe. Ok thanks for reading. And please tell your Opinion about this.

[Skrein]

The game master shouldn't have intervened at all in this situation. This is actually griefing by the GM because he's interfering with perfectly legitimate roleplay.

[Dajoji]

There's a huge difference between being evil IC and being a jerk.

GMs can step in whenever there are issues between players, whether they are due to someone breaking the rules or to simple misunderstandings. For more information about the game policies I suggest you read this. If you find yourself in a situation in which you feel you're being disrespected, do not hesitate to come to us.

Now, regarding your specific example: mixing IC and OOC as something that has to roleplayed is always messy. If we encounter this situation ingame, we'll probably check trade logs and inspect both characters to determine what was exchanged and have a word with both parties. If the first player was "RPing" a scam, they should give the other player a chance to get back at them IC. This does not mean they are allowed to harass them. Not at all. They just deserve a fair chance at recovering their money, the same way it would happen IRL. Using game mechanics and noobness to take advantage of others and then claiming it's RP is not gonna fly. So if you're really interested in RP, make sure everyone gets a fair chance at winning and that they enjoy your plot.

[Rigwyn]

One piece of advice I have been given by more experienced players when playing an evil character is to "always ensure that the other player has fun too".
If your going to roleplay ripping off another character then:

A. Ask permission in an ooc tell

B. Give them an equal chance to get revenge or recover their loss

In my opinion its better to focus on "how" the crime is committed than to focus on achieving some material gain. The roleplay should be entertaining and creative for both players.

Screwing other players on sales only hurts your reputation... It really doesn't encourage other players to play with you - or to conduct business.

[Prolix]

Always inspect what you are offered in a trade. Right click on each item and you will only be "fooled" if you choose to be.

Good people do not deal with evil people if they can help it, tricking the evil player was not a good action.

Evil people do not trust anybody, trusting the good player was not an evil action.

my two cents

[Sulaika]

Now i even think more that Gamemaster should not intervene all the time. It's like a mother with her little children. If there is a other kid who takes away a toy with what her kid played she will not always step in, cause the kids need to find first an own conflict resolution. And the kids need to learn how to handle problems. The mother could give them a little hint but she should not push them to take her solution.

[Talad]

I think PlaneShift is built to be protective to players. This is how we wanted it to be. This means that the game mechanics protect the players most of the time (example default no PvP). There is enough protection built in, to avoid requiring GMs to fix problems like the one explained above (see the comment of Prolix).

Also PlaneShift it's meant to be a roleplaying world, where evil characters and thieves may exists. I think the game should be led by players playing IC, so if someone fooled you selling a bad sword ... "he fooled you selling a bad sword", that's it, and should remain like this. It's perfectly real.

Taken from our game master guide:
"Be “invisible” as much as possible. Game Masters are Out Of Character entities, meaning that they do not belong to the fantasy role-play world we want to create in PlaneShift. So most of the time any interaction between a player and a GM is detracting from immersion in the world. It’s like someone turning on the lights when you are watching a movie."

[Sulaika]

It was not me that got cheated i would do what you said also. I just tell really an example of friends. But its really helpful that you share your opinions thank you. 

[Garile]

Sulaika if it is really roleplayed no a GM should not intervene, but if it is really roleplayed why would the player be going to the GM in the first place?

I think the problem here is that there are rules against OOC scamming. If you want to IC scam someone you should make sure the other knows about it OOC so noone can say you are scamming him OOC.

I have been roleplaying with several of the Outlaws lately and they have the rule that whenever they start a big event where they rob,kidnap,scam or kill someone that they first talk to the one that will be targeted to make sure that it all stays IC.

They didn't always have this rule, but this ment that we have had some OOC discusions here aswell becuase people felt they had not been given a chance IC and therefor felt  wronged not as a character but as a player.

I think in roleplaying you should try to make sure that your characters have the conflicts not the players

[Aiwendil]

I have been roleplaying with several of the Outlaws lately and they have the rule that whenever they start a big event where they rob,kidnap,scam or kill someone that they first talk to the one that will be targeted to make sure that it all stays IC.

As a rule of thumb for us: Always make sure both, the victim and the delinquent have fun with the RP. If it's no fun for both there is no reason to play it. And if there is the chance the other player, not the character gets annoyed by our doings ask in OOC tells first. I would say this starts with with everything involving items or Tria with a value above 2000 or rare items and items that can only be gained by quests. As long as both players know it's only RP and have fun with it I really see no reason why a GM should get involved at all. But I don't think the game mechanics should be an excuse to cheat on others in trades for OOC reasons. So if it really was only a RP situation as Sulaika said I don't think GMs should intervene, but if for example the "good" player used OOC tells before the trade to tell the other what this weapons does and it turns out this were lies I can't agree anymore that this was a fair RP. So for me it always depends a lot on the situation.

[Vonor]

I think we should not speculate if it was IC or OOC but stick to the facts, which are:

The victim filed a petition about the scam.
The item in question was supposed to raise stats/skills according to the petition, which cannot be checked by rightclicking the item in the trade window.
The GM who dealt with it talked to both persons in a group and they agreed on a solution.

Should we get involved in that?
Opinions may differ on that, but as a matter of fact we have to at least investigate on both sides. If during that investigation a solution can be found all parties agree on, then it's totally fine, isn't it?

Vonor

[Elady]

OK so I'm just wondering. It seems that two different approaches are begin take between the event described in this thread and the events in that thread at http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=34513.0 It the case of the linked thread it seems the opinion was it was a "fair" scam and it appears there was no advanced OOC communications between the scammers and the scammed parties.  I'm just trying to under stand the different positions between the events of the linked  thread event and the one i this thread, other than it seems the victim in this thread petitioned a GM when he found out he had been scammed.  It is just hard to know what to expect if there isn't a similar  response to similar events.

[Tuxide]

I think the game should be led by players playing IC, so if someone fooled you selling a bad sword ... "he fooled you selling a bad sword", that's it, and should remain like this. It's perfectly real.

The OP didn't clarify which server this was on, so we assume Fragnetics.  If this was EZ-PC, the player reaction over this sort of thing would be more pathetic.

[Dajoji]

Like Talad stated, we do not interrupt roleplay unless we see something that blatantly goes against the game policies. And like Vonor pointed out, if we are called in to observe something or clarify a misunderstanding, we will do so.

And regarding the case Elady has brought up, we did investigate what happened during that player event and talked to all the parties as well.

Now, here's a reminder:

It is not and will never be against the rules to play evil characters.

It is not against the rules to surprise other players with evil actions like scams. Talking to your targets to avoid OOC problems later is a nice thing to do but it's not mandatory and will not be enforced, just recommended. However, using loopholes and mech limitations to get away with scams without giving the other players a fair chance to win will always cause problems and we are more than likely to be called in. Each situation is different so we can't really issue a policy that will cover them all and not hurt roleplay in the process. Therefore, we look at each case individually and that is how this issue was handled and resolved.

Also, do not hesitate to contact a GM if you have any questions about the rules. Not knowing them is the player's responsibility and does not exempt them from punishment if they break any but we will do our best to clear your doubts if there's anything you don't understand about them.

Now, if you have any doubts regarding GM actions, you are welcome to talk to us about it in IRC: #planeshift-gmtalk.

[angstrom]

This might sound like a stupid newbie question (because it is);

If I am scammed OOC, a GM should be told.  If, however, I am scammed IC by a good bit of RP, is there an in-game authority that I could report them to?
(We could RP a trial and everything)