Cloaks Reloaded

[PhoenixRizin]

The old topic was locked, so I am starting a new thread

Currently GMs have the capability to change characters to other models (most recently clackers). So I was wondering, for characters like mine that operate in secret and wear cloaks, what was the possibility of having a switch that turned a player model from the normal one to that of a rogue when cloaked? The name would remain, as players are supposed to ignore the name and guild tag anyway, but there would be the physical appearance of a disguise. To make it interesting, perhaps the ability to cloak can be a quest reward or purchasable item (ie a Ring of Shadows) from Zak, Kisatol, Lori, The Dark Wanderer or Pauril. The technical parts of this exist for the most part in game, so perhaps you get the ring and use the command /cloak to change the model.

[Rigwyn]

It would be nice also to have a similar model for when one is wearing a ceremonial robe - something a priest or wizard might use. 

[Morla Phlint]

I like Jonoth's idea. Now you have to check the description immediately when meeting a character. If we are able to morph into a rogue, you won't greet somebody and then realize he or she is cloaked and you couldn't have recognized them  .

Moreover, there's nothing or at least not much that needs to be actually implemented. You just need to give the players the permissions to morph their chars to "Rogue". And the many cloaked chars will look much so suspicious on the streets 

[Marqsaynt]

My thoughts in a particularly unparticular order….

1.
How many rogues do you see walking inside the city walls just shooting the breeze on a Sunday stroll? If anything like this was ever implemented I think for realism’s sake, the player character’s faction with the guards would have to drop to something like -100, for the time they are in this “stealthy” mode.

b.
Since when does wearing a cloak make you completely unidentifiable, even by your closest friends (or enemies)? I never understood this and probably never will… I suppose if everyone was wrapped up from head to toe like the rogue model but, then how can NPCs and players recognize good ol’ Zak? Cloaked or not, height, weight, and body language are not going to change so, while being more difficult, I don’t get how someone well acquainted with a character wouldn’t still be able to pick them out of a crowd given enough time.

III.   
While I would love to see models for a variety of equip-able cloaks in game (and any other clothing, armor, etc.) I think giving players the ability to morph into a rogue model would just become overused, misused, and unamusing. For a community that is always crying out for new ways to distinguish their character model and make it more unique/recognizable, I find it kind of ironic that what is being proposed is a magic cloak that essentially makes everyone look exactly the same and removes all traces of individuality.

2a.    
Every covert action does and should have the possibility of having its cover blown… virtual invisibility cloaks make zero sense to me and honestly have always struck me as having the potential for godmodding. Plus, any act that has zero chance of failure makes for very boring roleplay. So, unless someone jacked Hogwarts, I have a really hard time believing any character should/could/would have a magical invisibility cloak… It just makes for gameplay that is too unbalanced.

[Rigwyn]

Personally, when cloaked I usually leave some sort of hint - especially if the other player requests it.
I think that some visual indication that the player is cloaked would be very helpful - even if it was a cheezy one ( like a letter C over their head )

This happened recently and is a good example of what we would like to avoid:


Mellas is deep inside a crack in the rocks under the bridge near Zak - I assume its very dark in there

(22:14:50) Mellas throws the black cloak over herself

And only a split moment later, Rigwyn finds her ( visually that is )

(22:15:08) Rigwyn shouts: found it !

Here Mellas explains to me in an ooc tell that she was wearing a black cloak to camouflage herself

(22:15:39) Rigwyn shouts: "My bad .. just a stone"
(22:16:40) [Tell] Mellas shivers, frightened by the shouting

[PhoenixRizin]

1.
How many rogues do you see walking inside the city walls just shooting the breeze on a Sunday stroll? If anything like this was ever implemented I think for realism’s sake, the player character’s faction with the guards would have to drop to something like -100, for the time they are in this “stealthy” mode.

The faction idea is a good one. As far as lots of people walking around in cloak, there are also lots of menki in the same red leather armor, or combinations of the chain, leather and plate, many looking alike, some looking different, but generally with tags off you can confuse between them. This applies even moreso to female nolthirs, as tags are the only reason I can identify any of them. This is only a temporary measure I propose to prompt willing RPers to acknowledge that the player isnt in their regular garb, so that a "Hi Jonoth" doesn't occur when I'm supposed to be mostly incognito. Players that choose to abuse it do so at thier own risk.

b.
Since when does wearing a cloak make you completely unidentifiable, even by your closest friends (or enemies)? I never understood this and probably never will… I suppose if everyone was wrapped up from head to toe like the rogue model but, then how can NPCs and players recognize good ol’ Zak? Cloaked or not, height, weight, and body language are not going to change so, while being more difficult, I don’t get how someone well acquainted with a character wouldn’t still be able to pick them out of a crowd given enough time.

This is where descriptions come in. Many of the users of cloaks I see have some kind of identifier to hint on who they are (or at least race). Again, some will make themselves completely unidentifiable, but its not like that is something not going on already. The models wont change this.

III.   
While I would love to see models for a variety of equip-able cloaks in game (and any other clothing, armor, etc.) I think giving players the ability to morph into a rogue model would just become overused, misused, and unamusing. For a community that is always crying out for new ways to distinguish their character model and make it more unique/recognizable, I find it kind of ironic that what is being proposed is a magic cloak that essentially makes everyone look exactly the same and removes all traces of individuality.

Again...this is a temporary solution. Seeing as there aren't all character models yet, I doubt first on the team's priority artistically is giving everyone special cloaks. This will come in time, but for now, I'm sticking with something that is already possible with a little scripting.

2a.    
Every covert action does and should have the possibility of having its cover blown… virtual invisibility cloaks make zero sense to me and honestly have always struck me as having the potential for godmodding. Plus, any act that has zero chance of failure makes for very boring roleplay. So, unless someone jacked Hogwarts, I have a really hard time believing any character should/could/would have a magical invisibility cloak… It just makes for gameplay that is too unbalanced.

See answer above about player abuse.

So just to reiterate, I think limiting those with this ability isnt a bad idea, but you can never expect every measure to be foolproof. And this is only something to play with until the art catches up and unique cloaks are a possibility.

[Marqsaynt]

I'm probably just biased... deep down I wish every rped cloak would vanish in a spectacular imaginary series of spontaneous combustions. From a realism stand point, I always found the idea of cloaks as covert items about as realistic as trench coats or Groucho glasses as tools of modern espionage.



Anyway, it is not a terrible idea and I am glad you at least liked the factions idea I floated but, like you said, it would just be a temporary solution to a longer term process, and I think I would rather have the devs working on more permanent solutions to progress the game than making momentary fixes that would not be necessary in the final product. (After all, if our characters have "real" cloaks to wear, then there is no need for a note in the description or morphing models).

[ncfbn]

I can understand your hate of the RP cloaks, I have had bad experiences with players who change their description so they supposedly look different every time and if you try to identify them through the disguise they fight it, my argument was that I saw someone of the same race, same height, gender and build who was in the same location less than five minutes ago...I mean c'mon...

[PhoenixRizin]

Point taken Marqsaynt (and nice illustration by the way XD). And I too tend to favor the long term work over quick fixes. My hope is that this fix at least would be one that wouldn't require too much wasted time if any, and if it would, I would agree that it shouldn't be included. But if its not too much work for the team then yes, maybe a temp solution would be good. As I was rereading the thread, I was reminded of how artist sketches of muggers and rapists here in NY tend to fit a similar mold ie same black hoodie with baseball cap. I guess having the rogue switch would be like all the assailants having that black hoodie and baseball cap.

As for ncfbn's comment, I see the potential for cloak abuse even in descriptions. What I've seen as well is players switching to new cloaks as a result of being discovered in their old ones. And a smart criminal wouldn't go out in that garb once someone knew that was him. He or she would be as obvious as our friend Bugs Bunny up there dressed as Groucho.

[Sarras Volcae]

this thread's name is badass

back to the topic... why do you guys want to punish people for wearing cloaks?  cloaks are pretty common. they aren't evil, right?

(LOL this post is about 8 hours late... I fell asleep while typing)

[Under the moon]

Cloaks... I have seen people wear these types of cloaks while idling in taverns or doing quests for guards. In real life, that would be equivalent to running around in a black jump suit and a ski mask. Ya, that is not going to draw extra attention.

For events that turned people into rogues, I always used magic spells or masks that make a complete illusion to disguise people and make them all look exactly like rogues. It helped explain why all rogues look the same and don't look like any race.

[Sarras Volcae]

Cloaks... I have seen people wear these types of cloaks while idling in taverns or doing quests for guards. In real life, that would be equivalent to running around in a black jump suit and a ski mask. Ya, that is not going to draw extra attention.

no, more like wearing a hoodie. cloaks aren't supposed to look evil. they're just meant to protect you from weather and cold.

[Elady]

Nothing wrong with a plain cloak. Now if you are wearing a cloak and mask and it is clear you are trying to hide your ID from everyone you might as just as well walk to the middle of the Plaza and shout " Follow Me I'm up to no good"

[Timmothy Perriwinkle]

This is why I'm sure to call everyone I see out on the fact that they're wearing cloaks

(21:19:15) Timmothy smiles, "Evening. Vayl, gender-ambiguously-dressed sir or madam."
(21:19:46) Vayl glances back at Timmothy, grinning. "He could say the same right back at you."
(21:19:57) Vayl says: [She says 'he' because of the voice.]
(21:20:04) Vayl says: [Just putting that out there..]
(21:20:18) Kellic doesn't look at Timmothy, "Amusing, aren't you."
(21:20:41) Vayl quirks a brow at Kellic, shrugging again.
(21:20:50) Timmothy nods to Vayl, "She could say a lot of things. But she'd probably be talking out of her possibly-well-shaped rear."
(21:21:00) Timmothy says: [He says she because he's an asshole <3]
(21:21:05) Timmothy says: [Just putting that out there...]
(21:22:09) Vayl's tail flicks, otherwise saying nothing.
(21:23:16) Timmothy looks to Kellic, "So susan--can I call you Susan?--Nice night, huh? Hydlaa sure is beautiful."
(21:23:52) Kellic ignores Timmothy, leaning slightly on the railing.
(21:24:26) Vayl smiles slightly, hiding it behind the rim of her mug.
(21:25:18) Timmothy comments to himself, "Rather antisocial, I'd say." He speaks up again, "Are you insecure about yourself, Susan? Do the other girls pick on you?" He shakes his head vigourously, "You're beautiful too, in your own way!"
(21:26:18) Vayl begins to giggle a bit. Turning her attention back to the hillside as she tries to block out the conversation.
(21:28:04) Kellic pulls a small box out of his cloak, holding it up to the same level as his blindfold, still completely ignoring Timmothy.
(21:29:49) Timmothy looks from Kellic to Vayl, eyes widening, "Oh! Oh! I get it! You're /that/ type of girl." He shakes his head, "Look, Vayl doesn't like girls like that... I'm sorry. Anyway, even if she did you just met her! It's too soon for that!"
(21:31:19) Kellic continues to ignore Timmothy, picking a small vial of something black out of the box.
(21:31:44) Vayl brings a hand up to her mouth, trying to muffle her laughter.
(21:32:55) Timmothy sighs, "Look, Susan, I know you like, her, I really do, but /drugging Vayl/" He puts particular stress on those two words, "Is not the answer. Write a poem, sing a song, profess your love like a normal girl, but not like a creepy stalker."

[PhoenixRizin]

Nothing wrong with a plain cloak. Now if you are wearing a cloak and mask and it is clear you are trying to hide your ID from everyone you might as just as well walk to the middle of the Plaza and shout " Follow Me I'm up to no good"

Exactly. I wear a cloak to hide my identity, but if it makes someone suspicious, it's the responsibility of the wearer to RP the consequences like anything else. Heck, if the ability gets added, and everyone starts wearing them, I would think that the Octarchy would take notice and make wearing clothes that hide one's identity illegal, or at least start persecuting them more. Its why I wouldn't do it all the time.. I would only want people to see it briefly, rather than having time to make out the fact that the cloaked figure is approximately my size. And also this is why adding a description of it is important.

And to add to my original argument, often players will wear a set of armor different from the norm to signify they are in cloak. For example, I will wear leather armor when I'm just walking around, but switch to chain with a battle helm or merc helm when I'm cloaked. However, I still have to update my description to say I am cloaked because if I'm in the arena training, wearing my cloak outfit, I dont necessarily want to be considered cloak even though I am wearing the same stuff. So the rogue outfit could fill this void.

Another option is to take one of the current clothing types and make it the rogue colors (there is a dermorian outfit like this already (used by Guile in the camp), so I dont know what would have to be changed for them). So you'd get black and grey leather armor or the like. The problem is the same. People will lean towards that outfit because black clothes tend to be popular in games, so there would be a city full of citizens looking like they are at a funeral. But it would solve the race ambiguity issue.