Cloaks Reloaded

[Rigwyn]

Could we have black ski masks then ?

And the ability to make our name show up as "somebody" in main ?

I remember the "somebody" issue from a while back but that was only a problem because by default everybody was "somebody" until you /greeted them

[Rigwyn]

Sorry for double post - I'm on a mobile device.

Perhaps with a skimask you name shows up as "somebody" until someone correctly identifies you

>Somebody says "stick em up"
>/identify somebody is rigwyn
>You failed to identify somebody

[Orgonwukh]

Get real kids, no matter what style of cloak it wont render you permanently anonymous, if the hood comes far enough over your face to make it impossible to see, you wont be able to see where you're going, every time you move there is a possibility of it coming open and revealing a glimpse of what's underneath, it won't disguise your height, mannerisms, voice or scent. The cloak itself may pick up dirt, stains or damage that makes it uniquely identifiable, the maker may use a distinctive stitch or colour.

In other words don't say I'm cloaked so people can not know who you are as that is just godmodding, go read Harry Potter if you want a cloak of invisibility.

It's not reality, it's a game. People return when they get killed. If it would be impossible to cloak in a way that you cannot be recognised, crime would not exist in Yliakum. It's not godmodding, it's adjusting to the game mechanics. However, thanks for replying to this proposal after 10 months with a rejection of the idea, Mordraugion.

[Marqsaynt]

It's not reality, it's a game. People return when they get killed. If it would be impossible to cloak in a way that you cannot be recognised, crime would not exist in Yliakum. It's not godmodding, it's adjusting to the game mechanics. However, thanks for replying to this proposal after 10 months with a rejection of the idea, Mordraugion.

Not true at all, people commit crimes with much higher chances of repercussions in real life all the time, I see no reason why this would be or should be different in a game where the punishment if caught is extremely minor in comparison. For the sake of game balance (cutting down on godmodding) and RP realism (aka not being taken out of the experience by ridiculous events) the possibility of failure and being recognized while concealed, no matter how slim of a chance, has to exist.

Cloaks don't make crime... people make crime. As Marqsaynt I may have "accidentally" committed a crime or two during the years... and to my memory I don't believe I ever wore a cloak while committing crime or any other time for that matter.


--


Right now cloaks are too  much of a RP crutch, most likely because mechanics aren't yet in place that help regulate the good guy/bad guy relationship in Yliakum. Since the fairness of things are for the most part determined by two often not-so-impartial parties... I can understand being tempted to use a cloak as a means to at least try to legitimize your character's stealthy abilities... But, for the love of Talad, there are so many crimes that do not require a literal "cloak and dagger" and honestly, if your criminal character is halfway skilled at what they are doing, there really shouldn't be any witnesses anyway.

For the sake of role play, why not let someone accuse your shady character one of these days? A well thought out crime would leave very little evidence (maybe even a plant of fake evidence) and just for the heck of it, you could line up a buddy to vouch for your whereabouts during the crime. We have quite a few secret criminal organizations... wouldn't it be nice if you could rely on your fellow crook pals to at least give you an alibi? This at least opens up extra RP dialogue between the "good" and "bad" characters... and could even lead to things like criminal trials with plausible guilty or not guilty verdicts... a law abiding character taking justice into their own hands and avenging the crime without legal consent (ironically becoming a criminal themselves) and I am sure a ton of other possibilities that haven't even crossed my mind.

Take what you will from my personal opinions/experiences but at least consider this as a call to creativity, a chance to look at PlaneShift with fresh eyes and seek out new ways to RP.   

[Elady]

Ok, in my auctioning victims rp rigwyn is still at it because he has not been caught yet. I have not left many hints so far and I don't think its required. I have exposed rigwyn to being caught by exposing his plans ( event down to the exact time ) with other players who may betray him. As the end of the rp approaches I'm going to literallly bend over nd make it even easier for good guys to jump in and fight back. The only thing I'm holding back on is being careful about being uncloaked - because I worry that the ic consequence could be permadeath. If I had. Assurance that permadeath would not be n ingame consequence then I would go as far as being uncloaked.

Rig - I'm not complaining about anything in the Auctioning Victims RP since I haven't really been involved but using what you said to make my point. As the bad guy you can control how long or short the RP lasts due to the control of information.  For example I believe last week some people had one of your co abductors trapped in the sewer. While your co abductor was able to escape the sewers because the good guys didn't want the hostage killed he was later confronted in the Laanx dungeon. Instead of being captured by the good guys and possibly forced to talk about who else was involved ( or trade information for his life) He escaped capture by jumping off a cliff. This just seems like a cheat for the bad guys. Want to avoid capture and possibly revealing any information about the crime(s) then take a trip to the death realm. It seems to me there should be a code of conduct, If you kill yourself to avoid capture then at the least the consequence should be the dead body is unmasked so that the person who died can be identified  and later be hunted down by the good guys ( or more easily hunted down like giving the good guys the ability to put out wanted posterd on the now unmasked criminal.

Just like some people complain that GM events have pre-determned outcomes that can't be influenced by the players I think player run RP's should always be open to a disruption that can lead to an earlier than expected finish or which may force the RP into a different direction in order to keep it going.

[Rigwyn]

I agree that any form of godmoding is unfair... but suicide is a viable option as long as the player has the means and time to do it. Now if this guy was unarmed and in a safe place where he could not jump he would be screwed and just using a /die without a way to do it would be bad rp Perhaps some good guys could have chased him down in the death realm ? .. but I dont want to comment on that too much as I know very little about that particular event.
 
Regarding control of the RP yes, the bad guys have some control ... and so do the good guys.

You good guys have:

1. Allowed us bad guys to do bad things to your characters - thank you
2. Have allowed us to go undetected for this long - thank you again
3. Have granted us the ability to cloak - thank you again

And these are sincere thank you-s Im not being sarcastic or anything.
Without your empowerment we would be very lame and unsuccessful criminals.

I intend to give good guys a fair chance to get the same amount of enjoyment out of
this RP by not playing the godmod card with "perfect-cloaking".

One a side note, I guess I assumed you wer talking about the Auctioning Victims RP because
as a player I have a rather guilty conscience as a result of this rp

[PhoenixRizin]

firstly...I want to thank everyone who has been involved in this thread so far. It appears that this is an issue that needed to be discussed in detail (even if its issues that were previously brought up).

@Marqsaynt: I like the idea of an IG bounty system to encourage goodies to hunt baddies. Rping criminal activity is a two-sided coin and needs the involvement of both sides.

@Elady: I always see the jumping off the cliff as a plot device like in comics and movies, where the bad guy falls off, but no one sees the body. At the moment, there is no way to do this in PS without dying, but I think a reasonable suicide to protect one's identity is ok, but as Rigwyn pointed out using /die at every turn would suck.

And I think cloaks themselves are identifiable features as well. For example, Jonoth was the one Rigwyn has referred to as his accomplice to the murder of Mellas (in fact Jonoth was the one to do the deed if I remember correct). She would later identify him because of the sound his metal fingers made against the hilt of his sword. In addition, Jonoth is now hesitant to do any crime in front of her as she would recognize his cloak as well, so his disguise would actually give him away unless he get a new one. So its little things like this that makes it more living on the edge and makes the game more interesting.

[Mordraugion]

It's not reality, it's a game. People return when they get killed. If it would be impossible to cloak in a way that you cannot be recognised, crime would not exist in Yliakum. It's not godmodding, it's adjusting to the game mechanics. However, thanks for replying to this proposal after 10 months with a rejection of the idea, Mordraugion.

I'm afraid it is godmodding if you think that wearing a hooded cloak makes you impossible to identify. If you want to discuss further you know where to find me on IRC, I'm there most days.

And where does the 10 months come from? this thread is only a couple of weeks old

[Rigwyn]

I don't know about PhoenixRizin but I think that even a cloak that offered *chance* at being unidentified would be an improvement. ( The probability could be determined by the game mechanics  - perhaps have a simple stat for cloaking )

And yes, in a case like this the player should still do something rp-wise to make the disguise realistic. It would be lame if they didn't.

If it would be impossible to cloak in a way that you cannot be recognised, crime would not exist in Yliakum.

I have to disagree with this statement somewhat. If cloaking is not possible then from a criminal's point of view crimes would need to be more brazen. Rather than being sneaky and tricking someone into following you to a remote place you would just club them over the head from behind, perhaps stalk them more or use someone else as a lure. If they see you they could report you .. yes, but you could always get them back in other ways - perhaps threaten to make their life hell if they blab, or to spread nasty rumors about them. 

From the victim's point of view they might have the upper hand if they successfully identify you. It may be time to take the back seat and let them dictate how the scenario will be played out. They might take advantage .. and they should.

[PhoenixRizin]

I like the idea of maybe having a way to randomly be uncloaked/discovered. Maybe it can be a function of the cloaked person's charisma versus the victims intelligence. So a more charming person would be more likely to convince you that it is not them, as a more intelligent person is more likely to see through the ruse. As for more brazen crimes (I know a couple criminals who have be very open about being criminals), my question is more for the settings team, about jurisdiction. For example, if I commit a crime in Hydlaa, can I seek sanctuary in Oja from the guard? Or is a crime committed anywhere gonna lead to official guards hunting you anywhere. Obviously leaving Hydlaa would not stop the victim from getting a lynch mob together (which could be fun for RP), but I ask so that perhaps we see more criminals working uncloaked then retreating somewhere they cant be persecuted by law, only by vengeance.

@Mordraugon:
A. I think Org wasn't talking about permanent unidentifiablility as much as finding a way so that a baddie doesn't have to be identified every time. The key is balance and fairness and players giving opportunities to be found or to be hidden.
B. Why IRC when we have a perfectly good thread going here?
C. The 10 months refers to his older thread. Maybe someone has a link if its still up?
D. Altering mannerisms can often be referred to in our cloak descriptions (ie how Batman sounds like he has laryngitis to hide his voice, or walking with a limp that the normal char doesnt have)
E. Most importantly since you are the member of the PS team active in this thread, you seem to offer many criticisms but no suggestions for improvement. The other players here have managed to be a bit more helpful whether on the pro or con of the argument. I'd appreciate a bit more ways to improve a part of Hydlaa life that is not going anywhere anytime soon. Basically, I'm just asking for your suggestion on how SHOULD a criminal in Hydlaa operate, as opposed to the general feeling I get that crime is being fought OOC by discouraging ways criminals can operate.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Why not use an alt to represent yourself when "disguised" ?

[Rigwyn]

I actually considered that but thought it would be cheating so I haven't.

If you consider this fair game then I'll start doing it.

[PhoenixRizin]

Why not use an alt to represent yourself when "disguised" ?

The only problem with the alt is that they are untrained, and training as it is takes a lot of time. So if there is any PvP, its the untrained cloak alt vs the fully trained opponent. The other option is a way to duplicate a character, but this can be abused if not limited properly. Perhaps limit 1 duplication per account? What does everyone else think about using alts?

[Rigwyn]

I agree with the training issue .. thats somewhat of a bummer if you have a well trained character but Its a tradeoff that I'm willing to try if other players accept it as fair play. As for weapon and magic skills training the alt to use a completely different weapon and or magic way might help to conceal his identity ( ie. say Rigwyn is known as a swordsman but when cloaked he wields an axe  ( and perhaps somewhat awkwardly ))

I think there's a lot of things that would need to be taken into consideration in order to do this fairly. This opens up some more questions:

1. You would probably want to spawn and respawn in the same spot.  It would not be fair for player x to log off in say BD as his cloaked alt and then log in at Oja with his uncloaked character.  ( I don't think any serious role player would even consider something like this as its effectively teleportation )

2. I would say the cloaked alt should reveal his/her uncloaked character's name if he/she is uncloaked and the one uncloaking him/her knows the uncloaked character's name.

3. How would someone who *might* recognize them have a fair chance of discovering who they are ? Should they perhaps put some ooc text in their description like
"[ This person might resemble characterA or characterB.....]" Or do we leave it up to the rp for the player to drop a hint .. or mess up ?

4. it would be handy if a character could *become* his alt without logging off and back on. This would also give the other players a chance to *see* him/her cloak/uncloak. I would imagine that this might cause some nasty inventory problems though.


** A late thought .. and I'll probably get shot down for suggesting this **

It would be very interesting if one could switch from one alt to another on the fly at any time (ie. while running ) and teleport(and change form)  as a result. If this were the case then seeing characters respawn, appear, and disappear would no longer look unnatural. Effectively a *spirit* so to speak would be able to inhabit multiple bodies - or perhaps characters in planeshift would have multiple bodies that go in and out of state ... something like how particles are said to behave in quantum mechanics.  ( PhoenixRizin's original idea was much simpler though XD )

[Orgonwukh]

I'm afraid it is godmodding if you think that wearing a hooded cloak makes you impossible to identify. If you want to discuss further you know where to find me on IRC, I'm there most days.

It is obviously not welcome to discuss the issue here. I don't see the benefit of excluding the player community by moving the discussion to IRC.

And where does the 10 months come from? this thread is only a couple of weeks old

10 months ago, I submitted a document to the settings team.[...]

PM me if you do not have access to this document and if you want to read it.