Cloaks Reloaded

[Timmothy Perriwinkle]

It is obviously not welcome to discuss the issue here. I don't see the benefit of excluding the player community by moving the discussion to IRC.

Seconded. They don't support alternate opinions in their room anyway. OMG DID I JUST SAY SOMETHING AGAINST THE OPS. Tsktsk. Ban me nao, plx.

But anyway, @Rigwyn: lol, all I can say, as I confirm your hypothesis of shooting your idea down.

[Sarras Volcae]

if bad guys want to conceal their identities, maybe they should try covering their faces... with masks.... not hoods? there's this big hole in front of the face. not very good at hiding one's identity. and if I can't see your face, there's a good chance you can barely see me.

[Mordraugion]

It is obviously not welcome to discuss the issue here. I don't see the benefit of excluding the player community by moving the discussion to IRC.

Seconded. They don't support alternate opinions in their room anyway. OMG DID I JUST SAY SOMETHING AGAINST THE OPS. Tsktsk. Ban me nao, plx.

But anyway, @Rigwyn: lol, all I can say, as I confirm your hypothesis of shooting your idea down.

You are welcome to discuss here, I won't ban you for disagreeing with me however I will for trolling/flaming, but I don't see much discussion only repeated talk of cloaks making one impossible to identify which is frankly silly, will the cloak remain glued to your head in combat? Does it automagically give you all round sight so you can see the guy sneeking up behind you? This may be a fantasy world but use some common sense

I'm afraid it is godmodding if you think that wearing a hooded cloak makes you impossible to identify. If you want to discuss further you know where to find me on IRC, I'm there most days.

It is obviously not welcome to discuss the issue here. I don't see the benefit of excluding the player community by moving the discussion to IRC.

If you want to avoid a realtime active discussion on IRC with myself and other Settings Devs there's not much I can say

And where does the 10 months come from? this thread is only a couple of weeks old

10 months ago, I submitted a document to the settings team.[...]

PM me if you do not have access to this document and if you want to read it.

10 Months ago I was an inactive GM so no I haven't seen the document and I wasn't answering you directly but the OP, if you really want to push things through and get your ideas in game then you know what to do...

[Akkaido Kivikar]

if bad guys want to conceal their identities, maybe they should try covering their faces... with masks.... not hoods? there's this big hole in front of the face. not very good at hiding one's identity. and if I can't see your face, there's a good chance you can barely see me.

Think Ringwraiths.... the shadow from the cloak's overhang conceals the identity, especially in low light, or from any angle apart from head on in the light.... and just because you're standing in front of a cloaked character, doesn't mean he's physically facing you, he would naturally hide his identity by turning his face away.

[PhoenixRizin]

Yes Akkaido, that's exactly more closely how cloaks work. I dont expect someone who only wears a hood to do so in broad daylight or in a non-shaded area. And many who wear cloaks wear masks as well to add to concealing their identity.

You are welcome to discuss here, I won't ban you for disagreeing with me however I will for trolling/flaming, but I don't see much discussion only repeated talk of cloaks making one impossible to identify which is frankly silly, will the cloak remain glued to your head in combat? Does it automagically give you all round sight so you can see the guy sneeking up behind you? This may be a fantasy world but use some common sense

Again..you have managed to criticize and not offer ANY viable solution...should we wait for XilliX to add another good point of discussion? I don't mind that you are on the con side of the argument, but offer ideas instead of calling it silly. Despite what you say this is an intelligent discussion of cloak usage and how to play it fairly. And I'm gonna ask you kindly again as someone who is supposed to be a moderator to be a bit more civil. You are smelling of troll at the moment and you just said you'd ban trolls.

If you want to avoid a realtime active discussion on IRC with myself and other Settings Devs there's not much I can say

I prefer this thread as it is recorded for evidence and doesn't exclude players based on timezone. No one is avoiding you. Just keeping the discussion as open to as many points of view as possible.

[Rigwyn]

Could you identify this person ?  No
Would you trust someone who look like this ? No
Might a guard question someone who looked like this ?  Maybe .. in Hydlaa Yes
Is this cloak effective ? Yes
Is it failproof ? No - it could be yanked off, burned, etc...



How about this figure ?

Could you identify their face ?  no
Could you pick up on things about their body like height, build, etc..  ?  Yes
Is this cloak effective ? Yes - for obscuring the face - assuning that the body itself does not have any identifying scars or features
Is it failproof ? No - if you tackled him you could yank the mask off but it looks a lot more secure than the cloak in the 1st image above



Finally, how about this one .. Would you be scared or suspicious of this guy ?  Heh, I wouldn't
Is the cloak effective ? Yes - as long as he's careful to keep his head down
Does he have a 100% chance of being disguised - if seen from behind you would only see the cloak so yes. If seen from the front only the top half of his face is hidden so maybe yes, maybe no .. likewise if he tilts he head back his entire face would be exposed.

Would it be good in combat - No
Would it be good for other thins ? Yes - traveling from point a to point b..., getting within range of an enemy, remaining anonymous in a non-combat situation

[Mordraugion]

Again..you have managed to criticize and not offer ANY viable solution...should we wait for XilliX to add another good point of discussion? I don't mind that you are on the con side of the argument, but offer ideas instead of calling it silly.

So only criticism with viable solutions is acceptable, despite no one answering my points about the impracticabilty of perfect anonymity from cloaks?

Despite what you say this is an intelligent discussion of cloak usage and how to play it fairly. And I'm gonna ask you kindly again as someone who is supposed to be a moderator to be a bit more civil. You are smelling of troll at the moment and you just said you'd ban trolls.

I said nothing incivil, unlike Timmy and yourself I didn't make pointed and direct insults. Read the definition of Troll

If you want to avoid a realtime active discussion on IRC with myself and other Settings Devs there's not much I can say

I prefer this thread as it is recorded for evidence and doesn't exclude players based on timezone. No one is avoiding you. Just keeping the discussion as open to as many points of view as possible.

It wasn't directed at you but Org and he knows why, but you are welcome anytime


@Rigwyn
At last some salient points however may I add
1.
Would also cause suspicion to normal citizens
Useless in combat situations
It is effective as long as the wearer doesn't move, speak or smell
Is identifiable on its own; style, colour, cleanliness, damage, wear and tear

2.
Better but still very obvious especially to guards, not going to sneak around Hydlaa dressed like that
Is identifiable on its own; style, colour, cleanliness, damage, wear and tear.

3.
Now this is my idea of a cloak.
Not so sure it'd be good for travelling with the hood up, some nasty outlaw or ulber could still blindside you.
I think if there were a lot of similarly cloaked baddies out there, the general populace would soon become suspicious
Is identifiable on its own; style, colour, cleanliness, damage, wear and tear (unless you bought a new one everyday and the tailor didnt have an identifiable technique)

[Sarras Volcae]

Rigwyn, you'd be able to see the face of the first one if he was looking your way.

on the second... no, just no. predators aren't even trying to hide their identities. find a better picture. maybe one that's human lol.

and the third. honestly, what self-respecting criminal would wear that? that's more like a sexual predator dressed as a monk. the hood renders his peripherals blind, and he can't see where he's going without looking at the ground. besides, you don't need to have eye contact to recognize someone.

if bad guys want to conceal their identities, maybe they should try covering their faces... with masks.... not hoods? there's this big hole in front of the face. not very good at hiding one's identity. and if I can't see your face, there's a good chance you can barely see me.

Think Ringwraiths.... the shadow from the cloak's overhang conceals the identity, especially in low light, or from any angle apart from head on in the light.... and just because you're standing in front of a cloaked character, doesn't mean he's physically facing you, he would naturally hide his identity by turning his face away.

ringwraiths are invisible. they're not human. give a better example.

[Rigwyn]

@Sarras
The first one has a mask so no, you would not see their face .. for all i know there may not even be a person in there at all.

The point of the second image was to illustrate the idea of a person wearing something that conceal their face only. ( Imagine that thats a Nolthrir with a mask and funky armor )

@Mordraugion

I agree on your added points .. Also what I did not mention ( and you did earlier ) is limited visibility and perhaps limited range of motion.

Yes, a cloak will always be identifiable in itself - but the intended purpose would be to hide the identity of the character. The cloak could be discarded or replaced if it becomes known. I agree that the first two are not really realistic however they serve to illustrate pros of cons of a cloak/disguise that would fully cover the body or in the case of the middle one the face only.

You mention that a person can also be identified via speech, smell, unusual movements, scars, perhaps a weapon or shield etc.. I have absolutely no argument with that - in fact personally I think its good rp to make sure and drop some hints like that.

I would find it hard to tell for example who was inside of a full suit of plate armor (including gloves and boots ). Given the image below, replace the helmet with an open helmet available in game, and the face can be seen.. though add a ski mask under the helmet  - or partially wrap the head like a rogue and the person will be much harder to identify.  Imossible ? no. Diffucult ? yes.

I think that the effectiveness of the disguise should be decided by the victim or a dice roll - in the same way that the victim chooses the effect of the aggressor's action in an rp fight. ( or better yet via the game's mechanics )

[PhoenixRizin]

So only criticism with viable solutions is acceptable, despite no one answering my points about the impracticabilty of perfect anonymity from cloaks?

The "perfect concealment" by cloaks has been referred to and debated several times in this post (feel free to go back and reread). And the other thing that seems to be assumed is that every criminal is a smart one who will have a perfect disguise, but there is no criminal handbook being handed out at the rogue camp warning new criminals how to best cover themselves.

And yes...I'd love to hear a response from you that isn't 'cloaks are silly' or 'they couldn't see'.

The original goal of the post was to find a way to set more visual cues about the current look of the characters. If I walk around in my regular garb, most players will greet me by name unless pointed to the description. It has turned into a very good discussion about cloak usage and godmodding through concealed identity.

A final note, I realize that amongst the criminal element 'cloak' is often interchanged with 'disguise'. So while in the strict sense its just a coat with a hood, a lot of the baddies are referring to disguises in general (ie ones with masks, etc). A character may wear a cloak and fully wrap their body with dark cloth under it, leaving small slits for the eyes. You'd be able to guess their size and maybe race, but you may not be able to point them out in the street, which is what I believe Rigwyn's point was with the three examples. Not that someone would look exactly like the predator, but maybe they wear a costume equivalent to the setting, but then wear regular clothes outside of that. In addition, the criminals I've seen usually go somewhere to cloak up or to cloak off, so 1) no one see's them get into disguise, and 2) because clothes take time to actually put on.

[Akkaido Kivikar]

@Sarras: The Ringwraiths in Lord of the Rings didn't need any or much CGI to cover their faces, did they?

[Timmothy Perriwinkle]

@Akkaido, they also didn't see with their eyes.

[Rigwyn]

Guess which famous actor this is. ( don't cheat by trying to look at the url )



Don't know ? Can't determine if its a famous actor or not ?
Then a simple ski-mask is effective.... even though its not perfect.

Also , if you were held up by this guy .. and perhaps somewhat shocked or panicked...
How good of a description might be be able to give to someone else ?
How useful would the verbal description really be anyway ?

( and before you say Oh, cops are always nabbing people after seeing really crappy police sketches keep in mind that good guys in-game don't have the insane resources that RL cops would have. Ok, so we have a klyros operated computer in the winch thats probably about as powerful as a TRS-80 model III  )

[Marqsaynt]

Even with the ski mask there are still certain basics that could be used in the description: Gender, ethnicity, height, build, eye color... and since most people in PS carry around weapons (hopefully sheathed) the make of the weapon could also be an identifier. Even a very good disguise would yield some information.

Usually I am not a fan of “dice” role-playing but here is an idea I had that might actually account for the possibility of being recognized while cloaked/disguised/whatever without replacing the human RP aspect. I remember a certain shady Klyros that used dice rolls to simulate the possibility of him being recognized when he came back after a long time with a new look.

Alright, let’s say a thief character, wrapped up head to toe like a rogue, corners another character in a dark alley in Hydlaa and takes off with their tria pouch. If these two characters do not know each other and the criminal character really is concealed well the “victim” has, for the sake of example, a 10% chance of getting a good ID on the thief. So, this person would /roll 10 and depending on the number they rolled, that would be how much information they can glean about their attacker. Of course, this would mean that “bad guys” would need to add physical attributes to their descriptions. (something that should be in most already). This could also allow people to post the “wanted” posters like those that occasionally come up on the forums or describe their attacker without any OOC “/me [describes a character that looks like Marqsaynt] .” kind of dialogue.

Example:

*Marqsaynt sneaks up behind Bad Luck Chuck and presses a dagger to his back*

Marqsaynt says: Long trip to the Death Realm… But don’t worry; I got paid well to send you the fast route.

*Bad Luck Chuck uses his only defense and sneezes on Marqsaynt*

*With an irritated sneer Marqsaynt thrusts his dagger*

*Bad Luck Chuck falls to his knees*

*With his dying breath, Bad Luck Chuck glares at Marqsaynt*

Bad Luck Chuck says: I’ll get you Gadget…

Bad Luck Chuck has died.

/roll 10

Bad Luck Chuck has rolled a 5.

---
Marq’s Description:

1.   – (Perfect Crime)
2.   Male
3.   Diaboli
4.   Tall
5.   Athletic Build
6.   Blue Eyes
7.   Black Hair
8.   Leather Armor
9.   Scar on Cheek
10.   Medallion of Laanx around Wrist.
---

Since Chuck rolled a 5, this would mean that he would have observed everything at number 5 and below. These features he would be able to use in a description to authorities, wanted posters, etc. In this case the attacker would be described as “A tall, athletically built, male Diaboli.” It is a fairly generic description but one that at least rules out a huge chunk of the population and could make the purveyor of the crime want to lay low for a while. Statistically there is always the chance they roll a higher number and glean a critical bit of identifiable information and even the slim possibility that the criminal pulls off the perfect crime. 

[Elady]

Let's see how much Info one could come up with about the person in the ski mask if they were there in person.

Let's see Skin color/race, gender, height, weight, color of the eyes, if any stray hair is visible  ( sticking out under the mask) the hair color.  Can also tell the person doesn't have a mustache  If the masked person speaks then you can get the sound of his voice and any accents. Also if he opens his mount you might pick up on anything special about his teeth ( broken, discolored etc). Again if the person speaks you could pick up on any unique speech patterns. Depending on where you ran into this masked person you might even be able to pick up on smells like if the person has  body oder, the smell of the person's breath. You could probably pick up which hand the person is.

While none of the above will give you a specific person by themselves, or even a number of the above collectively, it can certainly narrow down the number of people on your suspect list and it can limit how many people you need to look at more carefully to help solve the crime.