Magical dialect

[muffinnn]

Magical dialect : Language used by a wizard to give magical properties !

WEll, after reading a post where an admin pointed out that a blacksmith could want to play his whole game collecting items, making them, selling, trading and so on, i though, what if the same could be applied to arcane related activities...

What do i mean is this :
let\'s say we have a sorcerer, wizard which wanna learn a spell, any spell. Either he can be told how, he can read how to do it, but later on, after becoming master of the arcana art, he might be able to make some spells on his own. Now, how could he make a spell... well believe it would be based upon the wizards knowledge of the magical dialect.

Developpers could create such a language.  And the wizards would have to learn how a spell work to use it, no more easy spell learning.  Arcane schools could also get an use there for teaching. one could work as a teachers, researchers etc.

Another good point that i see is that it would be more involving to play a wizard that way.  And by creating such a dialect at the source, none would be able to cheat it.

suggestions on how any spells could base it\'s efficiency on the character level :
1- Character MUST know the spell.
2- intelligence can affect the % of time the spell can work. sometimes it will, sometimes it won\'t.
3- character LEVEL could also affect the % of time a spell work but also the amount of damage a spell can do at MAX.
etc
 i think stats for any spell known should be available to the player anytime and that the more you use a spell, the more PROeFicient with it you become.

i\'d be really happy if people could post their opinions, good or bad. no need for flaming though, anything constructive is welcome.

Peace

Muffinnn

[hook]

sounds nice

...problem: it can get pretty hard to type the whole spell everytime, plus it would be usually to late and those players that aren\'t very good a t typing would get killed three times before they would finish typing the spell.

....solvation?: you can type it in the spellbook by yourself and either run it from the spellbook (clicking on it), or asiginig it an alias (eg. \"foo\" alias \"Zinghar\'t ThoroGroth\'ng) or even buttons/slots that would remember a limited number of spells (a bit like in neverwinter nights)
(of course you can still type by yourself, it\'s just an adjacant method)

[Athirr]

i have been liking to see a game that features this. wuld be cool to see!

[Dolch]

well, that becomes an area of discussion as well.  I am not sure how many people out there have played FASA\'s Earthdawn, but they use a matrix in which the magical entity needs to attune their spell.  Each Matrix holds only one spell, so to become a true master you need more than 3 matrices.  This would solve the problem of trying to type the spell in each time by making the player attune his spells each time he wants to use a new spell.

As far as researching spells goes, keep in mind that this is not a pen-and-paper game where the rules are decided by the carbon based life-forms that breath.  This game is dictated by the carbon life-forms that the air-breaths have made.  That being said there will only be as many spells as the developers feel like putting in.  I for one would like to see a formula based spell system that is unique to each character that wants to learn the mystical ways.  It would be nice to know that the spell for my fireball will contain completely different components than Joe\'s down the street.  


In Asheron\'s Call, all spells are of the same basic components with personal tapers in them.  These tapers are a means of attuning the spell to your specific character.  This is nice, but everyone can learn all the spells simply by watching the words that others speak.  This makes learning the spells too easy and the magic system becomes a wasted effort.


Dolch

[windwalker]

abit of topic but i would love to see books writen in different lanuages as the moonrunes u find in the hobbit or the old tongue from the wheel of time series....

!!! AL ELLISANDE!!!

[elminster]

Has anyone read Rick Cook: Wizardry?

Something like a spell-programming-language would be needed. But something VERY simple (It is not even need to be related to any programming). With this, you can make your own spells. Of course, I suggest, some level of experience should be needed to be able to use different commands for spell creation. This would make wizard roles more difficult of course - but HEY, a wizard\'s life IS DIFFICULT! This would make only those play wizard roles, who really seem fit for it - others go hack\'n\'slash!

Predefined spells are too boring. There is no \"Role Playing\" in that...

If the NPCs can respond to real sentences THAT YOU WRITE, not only to some predefined crap, then why would this spell-language be a problem?

I say: this MUST be done!!!

--
Greetings,
E.

[elminster]

Oh, and about spell-storing:
That\'s what the wizard\'s book is for!

You \"develop\" your spells, when you have the time (in the city for example), and write them to your book - then you just select it at a fight!

Again: MUST BE DONE - THIS WOULD BE AWESOME!!!!!!!!!

--
Greetings,
E.

[hook]

this spell \"programming\"/developping idea is great ...it\'s probably a bit harder to implement, but it\'s a very inovative idea and i like it

[Elmer]

i had a similar idea but i first tried to create spell making system. i agree this is a great idea but concentrate on HOW it would be done.

or that\'s devs job...

[Moraudin]

It\'s a great idea, and I don\'t think it\'s that hard to implement either if you\'ve played that great classic called  \"Master of Magic\". It had a spell-researching system that could be adapted to PS\'s needs: you\'d start out with a spell book full of gibberish, and as you invested more mana into research, each of these phrases would turn into a usable spell over time. It also had an item enchanting system where you\'d invest gold and mana into enchanting a base item (weapons, ...).

The both of them could be combined in PS : over time, as you invest \"something\" (what that something is I\'m not exactly sure) into research you could learn different phrases in the magical dialect. However a single phrase would be useless, something like \"+5 to\"; only when you learn the phrases for \"add\", \"defense\" and \"target=self\" could you make a spell to boost your own defense by 5 points. The making of the spell and the casting of the spell would require additional investments (not necessarily of the same resource). There could also be a skill system involved in the making of spells: low level wizzards can only combine a few components into a spell whereas higher level wizzards can create more elaborate spells.

There could also be a system that decides which components can be used to make a spell, so as to avoid illogical combinations: e.g. \"instant death\" cannot combine with \"ressurection\".

Moraudin

[muffinnn]

If happy of the warm welcome this idea got! I think elminster\'s post reflected most of my idea for those who didn\'t understood my primary post. Now, since it\'s an open project, anybody can help developping the game. I do have some c++ experience and am willing to invest time coding, even if i don\'t have much of it free(sick!).

First, let\'s say it is some idea we could apply to any class of character. Let it be fighter, rogue, wizard, monk.  Each of those need to learn their respective skills which, for now, are given with level acquisition.  For exemple, a fight could learn his moves: by experiencing by himself or by being thaugh how to. I remember the game \"die by the sword\" where the character could make a whole lot of specific moves, some of which where really wicked!, by using the keypadnumbers. Each number was refering to a movment dirrection so a character could use his own sword the way he wanted. I\'d say that before the movment become fluid, he need to practice alot !!! again there is the armor weight, weapon weight, etc. One\'s character should be able to develop the ability to lift more weight as time goes on and as he\'s been lifting some weight near his weight lifting limit... etc.  Let\'s say that way he would develop his muscles with \"efforts\" through \"time\".

Now about a spell language.  I need some ideas on how you would like to see it become. I mean, what do you feel your character must learn to say a spell. I think part of a spell should be obvious and part should be irrelevant, hidden, unknown, etc. In this game we also have schools of magic in which the character can be \"born\" proficient. I think those school and the amount of focus\"points\" you put in each specific area, should enabled all the school specific magic keywords for a character, not the other keywords for other classes. Therefor, one who his proficient in blue and death could learn those spells by himself but, to learn other spells outside of them, he would need to relly on other party help(teaching but not necessarily from books because it would allow to many cheats but we could get rid of most of those cheats i think).

The way i currently see it :
A-  -> those would refer to the school/god of magic and the server or the client side would use it to check if the user as the keywords enabled to use it. One or more schools are usabled i think up to some kink of max.

B- \"now the hard part!!!\"
    1)here the user should specify which components of the world/magic he wanna use in his spells. -> only server would check if he can use thoses.
    2)after that, the wizard whould need to specify how he want to manipulate thoses forces, what he want to do with them! This is where i would put any type of locking based on the user level/experience and on the user use of specific forces manipulations! -> both client and server side checks.
    3)his spell closing in which he would also give a spell name. -> server side check only.

C- not yet sure what to put in there. suggestions?

Of course, everything in those areas would be working with sentences but the checking would be done with keywords. That way a user could use his own language to create the effects he wants!

This system would work well as a sub-class of a more general character class and it would be alot of work!!! but i think it worth it.

what you think ?

muf

P.S.: Sorry for any spelling mistake

[Jalix Amundus]

I think this entire idea could work out pretty well. Just make a different word for each part of the spell. Such as a word for each element, words for different ranges and durations, targets, etc. It probably wouldnt be all that hard to program either, not that I know much about programming.

[DooMeeR]

Hi!

Good ideas have been discussed here, I\'ll try to help a bit.

A way to \"build\" a spell language would be to have words, that you put in a sentence, and that makes a spell. I think most people agree with that.

Now the details: my idea is that each \"word\" has an index, like \"5\" or \"6\". Like diablo II\'s runes. Now, the most important the indexes of the words in the sentence are, the most powerful the spell with be.

And, some words would have special effects:
- if placed in the sentence
- if placed at the beginning at the sentence
- if placed at the end...
- if placed before another specific word
Etc.

Here is an implementation example:

Let\'s say every spell has a number, telling how powerful it is. Let\'s call this number P.
Let\'s say every rune index is I.
Now here is the formula:

P = ((Sum of all I) + A) * B + C

Initially, A and C values are 0, B value is 1.

Runes effects can increase (or decrease, maybe) either A, B, or C.
- if C is increased, it is an absolute addition. It is added after every calculation have been applied.
- if B is increased, basic rune power (I) is multiplied.
- if A is increased, it\'s the same that C, but it can be multiplied by B, so increasing A is *potentially* more powerful than increasing C.

For exemple, if i have all words from 1 to 5, and that i have these rules:
- ending the word with 5: B+1
- having the sequence 1,2,3 in the sentence: A+10
- having the runes 2 and 4 in the word: C+10

Let\'s say i\'m a wizard that can do 5-words sentences.

What can i do? My first thought would be to use the most powerful rune (5), five times:

5 5 5 5 5 -> P is (5+5+5+5+5 + 0)*(1+1) + 0 = 50

But if i think about it, i can replace some 5 be 2 or 4 so as to get a bonus:

2 4 5 5 5 -> P is (2+4+5+5+5 + 0)*(1+1) + 10 = 52

What if i try to use the 1,2,3 sequence?

1 2 3 5 5 -> P is (1+2+3+5+5 + 10)*(1+1) + 0 = 52

Another solution:

1 2 3 4 5 -> P is (1+2+3+4+5 + 10)*(1+1) + 10 = 60

You can add other rules, like \"if there are 3 numbers with the same difference (like 4, 5, 6 or 2, 8, 14...)\"...

With this \"game\" of special effect rules, you can quickly build normally powerful spells, but if you think 10 minutes you\'ll get a more powerful one.

Now, words could tell whether the spell is a \"blue\" or \"red\" spell, if it is aimed at the enemy or at an ally, and so on. This could be told by the last word, or the first word, as it has been said earlier.

I made several tries, and I found that with easy rules, you can build spells between a \"powerfullness\" of 20 and... 350. But I had to try several sentences so as to get the 350. And i found it amusing.

The sorcerer could have to learn words, by visiting special temples for example. And the number of word he can use in a sentence could increase with the level (like 1 at lvl1, 2 at lvl2, 3 at lvl4, 4 at lvl8, and so on... at lvl50 you could have 6 words with this simple rule)

Sorry for the spelling, I\'m French

[Xandria]

I, too, find this idea very interesting.  It seems like in some games, wizards can be really powerful with spells like area of affect and ranged spells.  For instance, a fighter encounters 5 enemies, and he has to engage them all individually (or maybe with some special multi-attack), and even an experienced character can take a little while to fight them off.  An experienced mage would just press a couple keys to select the right spell and *boom* all the enemies are dead.

If you had a system where you had to use words to cast spells, it could balance out game difficulty a little bit.  Of course, the spell book is a great idea, but it should be limited in some ways.  A great way to do it might be that it could only hold a maximum number of *words*.  So players would have to choose whether they wanted to store, say, 10 easier spells, or 3 really complicated, but powerful, spells.  It sure would add a lot of strategy!

It would also be great, because then you wouldn\'t have all these high level mages running around casting the same spell, because it\'s the best in the game.  And with a word based system, you can be ready for anything.  You\'d likely have some spells that would be good against everything, but there should be some words that are very specific.

So say you\'re walking along and you notice some goblins coming toward you.  Now you\'ve got a decent spell lined up in your book, but since it\'ll take a little while for them to get to you, you can cook up something extra special.  So you think of some good words that correspond to some goblin-effective magic, and you cast a really cool spell that does maximum damage.

I could keep going on, but if I do this post will be too long to read  

[elminster]

I only write, so the thread won\'t die out. Please, newbies, new people, read through the thread and post what you feel about this.
I also hope the developers read this, as this is brilliant idea, and I think the spell casting MUST be done this (or similar) way.

--
Greetings,
E.