Do you or Don't you care?

[Akkaido Kivikar]

Talad must care, he came ingame and had a pleasant RP with whoever spotted his character.

Was alot of fun.

[mickra]

Illysia, it seems we have more agreement than disagreement about things. We tend to phrase it differently and are most likely viewing it from two different standpoints. You, from your oldbie one. Me, from my noob one. We see the same things happening, though. Mostly.

The last great player exodus happened because RPers were sick of PLers and PLers were sick of RPers, so both left to get away from each other.

No. As had been stated many times by many RP oldbies who left: PLers are not a problem, not even a part of it, as long as they just PL all they want and keep silent about it in Main. Or talk it amongst themselves in their guildchats or /tells or whatever. There are enough maps and mobs and ore and game mechanics for everyone to enjoy. Honest PLers are nothing else but some advanced kind of NPCs (they can occasionally greet someone!), but that's about all. Compared with any NPC you name, they have more sophisticated paths and a slightly improved AI. (I still prefer Oja carpets, if you ask me ; ).

Once they attempt to "roleplay" with other people or run their own events on Skylab, it's not a problem either. It's a disaster, period. But at this point it's not about PLing any more, it's about bad RP which is already prohibited by rules... with no one to actually enforce these, our GMs being too busy chasing mining bots all around the place. Lips sealed.
Once they involve noobs into that, it's a major disaster, full speed ahead. That's how we get misguided and disoriented half-noobs attempting to RP with someone near Harn while standing (literally, at times!) on that someone's toes with weapons equipped in both hands. They are probably  told IC'ly, by other players, that what they do isn't right, they go to their PL/OOC buddy next and get lectured on how real RP must be done through raising stats/skill numbers and 'RP elitists' being nuts. They go with that... and leave the game soon anyway, just because other games are more kewl  and have more awsom grafiks  and don't lag that bad. I'd say good riddance, were it not for the simple fact that I'm still a noob too, and I remember only too well how wonderful does it feel to have your first weapon equipped. Near Harn

The rest of us normal noob people is most likely to keep being ignored by experienced RPers, and the best part of your message deals exactly with that. You mature folks don't have to bear with all sorts of crap you're talking about. Sure. So you keep your RP to yourselves while your OSP thingies die a very slow and painful death. You say we noobs aren't interested, and supportive, and respectful enough, so it's all our fault. After that, you leave, for now or for ever.
Those other folks I've named earlier don't have to bear with all the crap either. They do though. I honestly have no idea why. Maybe they're nuts indeed. Or maybe they just love RPing for its own sake, again, or... wait, maybe they just aren't mature enough to have adopted that IDC attitude? Let's be optimistic though, they'll have it developed in another year or two, provided we still have the game alive and running by then. Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen?

And, of course, I don't mean "Illysia is to be blamed for what's going on" while typing the "you" word in. I'm not blaming Rigwyn or Marqsaynt either. I'm not even blaming the GM team, oops !
It's not about blame, it's about things that must be changed first. From both, or more, sides of the... whatever you call it. Unless it's changed somehow, I personally don't care what happens to the Stonehead, or the RCD, or the Outpost. Alone, I have no use for it anyways.

Edit: typos.

[verden]

Roleplay mechanics require some sort of moderator or storyteller to enforce a ruleset and a story on a number of players. Those sorts of games are not new, and have existed since Empire of the Petal Throne. In PlaneShift, it is all arbitrary. Players do it however they want, in whatever way they want, everything is arbitrary. This leads exactly to the sorts of problems that plague the roleplay community in PlaneShift. I'll always maintain that PlaneShift is not a roleplay game, it is rather a game that asks you to roleplay your characters. I tend to think that Talad simply envisioned a game where players would act in character to enhance the immersion of other players. It is possible that a combination of GM powers and instancing may bring about actual roleplay mechanics in PlaneShift, in the future. Until then, there is very little to do about it except stay in game and keep roleplaying. Voluminous expository compositions about why this or that problem is killing the community, ad nauseam, on the forum do nothing to promote roleplay in game.

[Illysia]

As I said, the great player player exodus happened because of RPer/PLer tensions. I never commented on whether PLers were the problem but that tension between the two groups was most definitely a large factor in player loss. Trust me, there is nothing you can tell me in the defense of PLers that I haven't said already to the oldbies of my time. Again, if you don't believe me, go back about 2 or so years and look at all the heated debate. Eventually both groups got tired of that foolishness and left.

However, you often cite oldbies ignoring newbs but have you stopped to consider that part of the problem is newbs ignoring oldbies? Often newbs tell oldbies "you have to do this and this and that to help us." and then sit on their rears waiting for someone else to do all the work. It good for oldbies to help but keep in mind that technically newbies are capable of building the community up by themselves as that's what the first players of the game did. Newbs do RP, but more of them need step up and take some more initiative.

I know that some newbs were not only capable RPers before they enter the game, but are capable of organizing their own RPs too. Part of the reason oldbies are quick to blow off newbs is that it sounds like the newbs are being demanding without even committing to contribute to the effort themselves. It would help greatly if newbs would ask oldbies for help in running their own initiatives instead of sitting around for some oldbie to set up an event to keep them entertained.

Oldbies do have to bear a lot of crap just to be helpful. The only way to insure you don't have to tolerate crap is to leave. Look around for the oldbies... See how they are gone? Some players give crap like some sort of "thank you for visiting" gift. It's not a simple matter of just refusing to acknowledge it. You keep hearing what sounds like "Do for me because I'm bored, but too lazy to start up the kind of RP I want to be in," and "Stupid oldbies don't know what they're talking about," your resolved to even bother gets weaker and weaker. Like I said, oldbies are people too and if doing all the work doesn't sound appealing to newbs, it won't somehow make an oldbie's life fulfilled either.

In the past, oldbies could be blamed for running off some newbs but there aren't enough oldbies around to claim that any more. Players leave because PS's only golden aspect is its RP, everything else has better counterparts in other games. Were the community not fractured (and that's not just because of the player generation divide) then people wouldn't leave so much as there would be something to come in to, to be a part of.

I know people think that long posts on the forum do nothing, but have you actually stopped to think of what the actual purpose of it is? These long posts are here to promote understanding among the community and get everyone on the same page by presenting multiple sides of a discussion. I'm sorry it's boring to read but hey, you can't plan a great work with a small sketch. Part of the reason for constant deterioration is that people don't want to admit that it will take more than simply RPing on a regular basis to get things back in good shape. It will take a lot of hard work and planning. People never stopped RPing entirely but look around, things are still getting worse. Sitting on your rear in the tavern talking, going out and robbing people, or hunting in the wilderness doesn't cut it... otherwise things wouldn't have deterioration to begin with.

What is needed is planning and concerted effort, but a lot of people just want to pretend that letting things work themselves out will do some good. Sorry but that is a higher order of fantasy than even PS deals with. The community will have to work and work hard to affect change. If everybody is sitting back waiting for someone else to do the work or are too lazy to jump in the fray and get working because things will somehow work out, then nothing will ever change for the better. Problems are fixed by a logical process which involves identifying the problem then applying a solution that actually changes the current condition of the problem. Haphazardly trying the same thing over and over again does no good, and never has.

So I will ask this explicitly, Will those of the community still willing to work for it help me in implementing a WORKING solution and not just ramming a square peg into the circle slot for all eternity?

[verden]

Long forum posts do nothing because most of the people you are trying to reach aren't reading them. Period.

[Illysia]

And if you are in game RPing but always with the same one or two people, it does nothing for the community. Period.

[verden]

It does more than posting on this forum does. Nothing is going to get better for you until player numbers come up.

[Illysia]

Verden... have you been following the discussion(regardless of whether or not you read my whole posts)? That would be the point, player numbers won't come back on their own. Many players would come back and play if they didn't have client issues and many would come back if there was a vital RP community.

Why step over old players in favor of new ones if the old ones would considering coming back? The whole point of my efforts is to revitalize the community enough to encourage more older players to return and higher new player retention.

[verden]

You keep saying that they will but I don't believe it. In order to RP, the client has to do very little. All you need to be able to do is login and be present in game. Is that really hard? I can get logged in with any distro of PS that I choose, on any computer at my home or my office. Textures may be at minimum, and the game world can be choppy but roleplay can still be performed with it. This is also ignoring the fact that a great many players/devs left for reasons that have nothing to do with the state of the client or the state of RP in game. Like it or not, you need new players.

[Illysia]

I've talked to them, I know they will come back. They just won't come back to this. And yes it is that hard to get in game. In other MMOs, you never have to do your own fixes, the devs make sure that everything is done for you because they have a paycheck riding on it. Since PS is not funded or anything we have to do some of the work ourselves.

I had to try updating several times just to get my own client working and at first I didn't think it would. Even now I get crashed out of the game or lagged out constantly, client bugs have always been a big hindrance. That's why the devs get on those bugs fast. I don't know what you use at home, Linux I think but especially windows users have a much harder time getting the new clients to work. It's just the nature of the beast.

Also, It's not ignoring the fact that many left, it's focusing on those we can get back and those we can encourage to stay with us.

The whole point of my efforts is to revitalize the community enough to encourage ... higher new player retention.

See that part... see it? I know we need new players but we get new players all the time. What we need is something to keep them here. It's getting to the point where people are often quitting after a few months. That's why the community needs to be healthy for.

I can understand if you truly don't feel this helps, but it doesn't hurt either. Just coming here and basically demoralizing the effort can hurt though. I can't reach everybody but I don't need to. I only need to reach some people and get something going.

[verden]

Oh you've talked to them? All of them? C'mon, Illysia. Give me a break. And client bugs... have also always been there. They were always there when RP was cruising along in PlaneShift. I run PlaneShift on Macintosh usually, Windows often, and infrequently on Ubuntu. The client is in the best shape it has ever been. It is people's lack of commitment to the project that keeps them from being around, the software is not that unworkable. Especially if what you want to do is RP.

[Socius Rockus]

To summarize:
Newbies can't RP 
Olbies don't RP     
Who is RPing?       

[Illysia]

@Verden: Ok fine Verden. I'm through trying to explain this to you. You already know too much for me to convince you of anything. But I will say this that if you aren't here to help with trying this method then why are you here? Saying RP more is about the equivalent of telling hungry people to eat well. Unless a system for getting them fed is developed those people could well starve even though there is food out there somewhere. As for commitment, some people have lives and don't want to spend hours upon hours fighting technical issues. This is just a game when all is said and done, not a spouse.

@Everyone else: I'd like to actually get together to figure out why the RP atmosphere is so dull. It can't be n00bz running around as they left a long time ago, and it's not entirely bad RP as there isn't nearly as much floating around these days, but something does make it rather difficult to get wider scale RPs going in game. I have no idea but I'm open to suggestions.

@Socius:  RP phantoms apparently.

[Zon]

@Everyone else: I'd like to actually get together to figure out why the RP atmosphere is so dull. It can't be n00bz running around as they left a long time ago, and it's not entirely bad RP as there isn't nearly as much floating around these days, but something does make it rather difficult to get wider scale RPs going in game. I have no idea but I'm open to suggestions.

RP atmosphere is so dull because we do not have communication. I mean just look at Channel. Everytime there is a feature on, people go on channle and say - did you find this? oh where did you find that? Where do you look for this quest?. If not they usually find it themselves.

 I mean do it with someone and Roleplay while doing it. What would happen? Will you get attacked by an ulbernaut? Hunt while you get there? set up a camp for a night? Find a rare item? Break a leg?. There are many possible ways of happening. What we need is encouragement.  

And another thing is: Don't forget about other guilds. If the guild is really Yliakum based, it should not find a hard time coping with other people or guild. Im pretty sure you can send them a tell. Tell that you are wanting a baddie for your roleplay and they will come.Or if you are a Baddie, do not wait for the "good guys". Send them a tell too. Tell something like "Hey we want to be attacked tonight, Can you send 5 of your troops?" - While saying this, mention the outcome too. "We will have a huge fight but then you get to escape" or "You will beat us, we will have to resume our roleplay the next day [In Game] because we are too tired and have too many injured". If it comes with capturing the other's guys and engaging a war, it would need more negotiation.

I think the Alliances in SkyLab is also dull. Not to be pointing fingers. All the ones that I have seen are "we are all good guys, we should make an alliance together and kill the bad guys" or "We are all enkis, let us work together!" Alliance is supposed to be negotiation. What benefit will one gain? What will one lose? What resources needs to be shared? I mean for the all race guild, they could make an alliance to each other. say an all klyros guild to an all enkidukai guild. One guild is good in fighting [warrior based] and the other one is good in magic. They could benefit from each other through combat.

The guild will also need to be more flavourful. Who are their enemies? Do they have a "rival" guild that competes their resources? Is it those guilds that attacked them? I mean I am sick and tired of these conversations about "you killed one of my guildie, let us go to war." Add some spice to it. Continue the roleplay. Do not end it in a snap [by engaging in a war]. Will one guild try to attack back? Will they retreat? Will they leave them alone?
Long ago, these guilds have promotion ceremonies, awards to their guildies, guild meetings. And they do it in game as well, not in a flunky guild chat tab. Now, there are competitions and stuff like that. I mean it is a good thing. Do not get me wrong. I think though that we need to add spice on the competitions too. I like the idea of the Enki Festival with shops for example. I mean it adds to the lag [don't get me wrong.] but this is one step up. But there are other options - Will there be a lottery or gambling? [of course not allowed in arena], will there be a ceremony to the winner of the competition? Will it get canceled because of a group of ulbernauts? A group of thugs? [You could always contact a GM with this or a thief guild]. I think If you combine these two, I think the roleplay will rise.

I have many more, these are the basics

EDIT: I also want to add that when it comes to competition. Do also roleplay. If you get a ticket for that, roleplay but do not have a flavourless RP:
Seller: want a ticket?
Buyer: sure
Seller: Have a nice day.
BORING!
YOu can do better than that. If other players see other players in engaging in a more flavourful conversation like saying how are you. then saying how much for a ticket. then maybe arguing that it is too expensive to you, that would be a one step up. For the one organizing the tournies - how about a stand in hydlaa? This would improve everything as well.
I was approached a while ago in channel saying that I should join their group in the tournies. I said I do not want to unless approached in character - this is what you need to do too. Not just some OOC "hey do you want to join my group for the competition?"
I am noticing now that we are not even roleplaying. A simple conversation in the tavern is not Roleplaying. It needs to contribute to the communitu in order for it to be a roleplay. The tournies will not be RP if people keep signing up OOCly and making a group in OOC. [I am not saying that the festival is bad. it is not the festival it is the people that are joining the tournament. but I also think that the ones managing it could encourage other people to roleplay more

[verden]

Amazingly enough, Illysia just answered her own questions.