Tell Disable

[Sarva]

I've heard it said often that to become an expert in something you need 10,000 of practice in that skill/field or a variation of that says 10 years or 10,000 hours of deliberate practice

it's a lie

No not a lie http://www.ehow.com/how_5065117_use-hour-rule-achieve-success.html and http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/339/dec01_2/b5138

[RlyDontKnow]

I definetely agree with sarva.
after a whole year training archery for about 2-3h a day, I wasn't that bad, but I was still anything but a master, not even an expert
such things require time - a lot of time. and if you ever got involved with martial arts, archery, etc., I'm quite certain you know that developing such a skill to a level of complete mastery takes quite some time.
getting to a beginner or intermediate level doesn't require that much experience, though, at all. and actually planeshift reflects that (I got to level 30 ranged and str/agi 100 (starting at 50/70 iirc) within a single day )

[Draklar]

No not a lie http://www.ehow.com/how_5065117_use-hour-rule-achieve-success.html

I quote:
"Outliers, further describes how the magic number of 10,000 hours was the average number of hours the violinists as well as athletes, composers, writers, artists, even criminals spent to achieve their success."
"average number" does not quite equal "minimal number" and in all honesty it does not say anything at all. And what's with this "criminals" thing? I guess there's an official criminal school somewhere out there?

But anyway, since I cannot possibly argue with internet links, I'll throw one myself:
http://www.robertomoretti.com/blog/2009/06/11/the-10000-hour-rule-of-talent-a-myth/

RlyDontKnow: I gotta admit.
If you really managed to maintain 2-3 hours for a year and it wasn't mere "trial and error" or "playing around" training, then I'm really amazed all you can say about your skills now is "not bad". But I do feel obliged to commend you on your patience, the more that from what you say the progress wasn't exactly clearly visible. Very few people wouldn't be discouraged in such situation.

[RlyDontKnow]

it wasn't mere trial&error, I'm in one of the most successful clubs in my country and our trainers are well trained and one even got the highest rank you can get in that area and is qualified to train professionaly (e.g. she even trained olympia contestants)
"not that bad" is quite good after all, I managed to hit targets being 80m away and didn't have any issues hitting targets beign about 30-50m away. I was one of those advancing pretty fast after all.
anyway, maybe you should think about your definition of master, again.
a true master would be something along the lines of beethoven or mozart music wise, for achery along the lines of "robin hood".
it's something legendary that you definetely won't see just every day and that level is clearly incredibly hard to reach.
sure you can reach a "not that bad" level quite easily, but that's not what's been discussed lately for ps tbh...

becoming a *master* shouldn't be easy, it requires *years* of hard work, mostly even a whole life time. it's nothing you can achieve within a few months. think of the master crafters of medieval asia, samurai, ninjas and thelike even if it's a bit off track

[Draklar]

a true master would be something along the lines of beethoven or mozart music wise, for achery along the lines of "robin hood".

Um. You do realise Mozart became a prominent performer still in his early childhood, right? That sort of proves my point. Also, I refuse to accept Robin Hood as a relevant figure in this discussion, due to his fictional character...

Anyway, Lilou is the only contestant that ever won Red Bull BC One twice, so I suppose he can be considered a master. The linked performance is the first time he won it, 7 years after taking up b-boying and he already reached international podiums 2 years earlier. That gives him 5 years to reach more or less superb skill.
Are we to assume he continued straining exercises 6 hours a day for 5 years, non-stop, and continued beyond that? He does have a life beyond b-boying, y'know.

[Sarras Volcae]

becoming a *master* shouldn't be easy, it requires *years* of hard work, mostly even a whole life time. it's nothing you can achieve within a few months. think of the master crafters of medieval asia, samurai, ninjas and thelike even if it's a bit off track

did you forget this is a video game we're talking about? it's supposed to be fun, not work.

[Geoni]

We're arguing about Mozart now?  This thread gets funnier every time I look at it.

[khoridor]

IRL, very few people would become a master at anything, regardless of how much they learn, train or practice. And to have a chance, one needs to be good to begin with.
Games are egalitarian; everyone has a chance. The real issue has been agreed upon for ages: progress with fun. Balance only follows.

For the /say/whisper/shout thingy: maybe I never said it before (got busy and forgot while working on it), but I remember a wish nucleus I used to have about an individual voice volume you set before you speak, along with a sort of Stentor stat or racial trait that allows people to shout louder than others (and cover others' voices  ), vocal chords that can strain, a /sing command, no more /shout and /whisper commands, etc. Don't ask me what all this is for, though; as I said, it was just a bric-a-brac of ideas.

[Draklar]

did you forget this is a video game we're talking about? it's supposed to be fun, not work.

Perhaps in context of what Pepito said, there could be minigames that act as out-of-combat training.
For example for archery you'd have a "shoot at target" minigame, with varying levels of difficulty ("shoot the target", "shoot speciffic area", "moving target") that grant varying amount of experience if accomplished. As the character would get better, the target would move farther away (to the point where you need a good enough bow to shoot that far), and player would be forced to pay greater heed to such notions as strength of a shot, wind strength/direction and the angle.

This way the minigame would continue to be challenging and I suppose fun.

[novacadian]

Even if it was misunderstood by him, I talked to weltall about this yesterday which turned into an argument. He's not going to impliment it because he thinks that [whispers] isn't even needed and that it should be called [tells] instead of [whispers]. Little things like this is why I'm losing faith in the PS team.

In all fairness to weltall and the dev team the following message was stumbled across from the distant past...

...the best player of planeshift is someone who roleplays using the mechanics and not someone who uses only the mechanics or only the text. A middle zone then.

Personally, the attitude expressed in the above quote from weltall seems a good one for a developer to have with so many opinions as to what RP should and should not be.

This observation is not mean to start up off topic flames but just to make clear that his opinion is respected by me and the use of /away has been doing the job quite well to meet my needs/request.

- Nova

[weltall]

geoni didn't report the entire thing anyway for me whispers should be in main not in tell with a different radius. there was also the idea of selectable voice strength the problem of it is making an interface.

i think everyone would love a whisper which is invisible to everyone in real life: is it so? i can only imagine the mass of students who would use it

[Geoni]

geoni didn't report the entire thing anyway for me whispers should be in main not in tell with a different radius. there was also the idea of selectable voice strength the problem of it is making an interface.

i think everyone would love a whisper which is invisible to everyone in real life: is it so? i can only imagine the mass of students who would use it

Here is just a portion of one of the arguments that we had, just to "report" what had been said and how I know you aren't going to let this "tell disable" thing happened:

[01:49] <@weltall> well i'm not going to copy and paste tell to make whispers you can forget that

(The statement above is what tells me this isn't going to happen. I'm sure that it is SO hard to copy and paste some code that has already been written.)

[01:56] <@weltall> really many "rp features" are just absurd to think about
[01:57] <@weltall> i had things like area based inventories
[01:57] <@weltall> invisible labels
[01:57] <@weltall> copying a feature just to add a slightly difference
[01:57] <Geoni> It's absurd to think that RP features aren't important in a RP game...or what used to be a RP game.
[01:57] <@weltall> almost imperceptible
[01:57] <Illysia> No, you disagree with RP mentality.
[01:58] <@weltall> no that's not rp mentality
[01:58] <Illysia> The problem is that RP fell out of fashion and tragically even in RP games...
[01:58] <@weltall> it's covered mentality
[01:58] <@weltall> you think only of "nice shiny this"
[01:58] <Illysia> Yes it is weltall. You simple disagree with it.
[01:58] <@weltall> but you don't look at all the conseguences of your ideas
[01:58] <Illysia> No, otherwise we'd be happy with mounts.
[01:58] <Illysia> weltall, look at player numbers before you talk consequences of action.
[01:59] <@weltall> an x,y based inventory is unusable
[01:59] <@weltall> and if it was for me i'd even go to a list based inventory
[01:59] <Illysia> What are talking about?
[01:59] <@weltall> about some of the great ideas which came out recently
[02:00] <@weltall> full cloaking with no player name label => griefing
[02:01] <Illysia> That doesn't mean it was suggested by a decent RPer...
[02:01] <Illysia> Obviously not all ideas work but all ideas get tossed out just the same.
[02:01] <@weltall> no? didn't look like that from the community
[02:02] <@weltall> tell with radius is quite weird
[02:02] <@weltall> but personally i always used main to whisper

(At this statement above: it is easy to tell that you code only what you want and prefer, over what most players don't.)

[02:02] <Illysia> No, it's like sounds not traveling the full length of the city.
[02:02] <@weltall> and yes i find people who can't rp and have hears who let them hear from the other side of the city
[02:02] <@weltall> but that's another thing
[02:02] <Illysia> If people respect the whisper then fine but many fine that hard.
[02:03] <@weltall> then you are confused because a more limited radius say is not the same as a tell
[02:03] <@weltall> which is a private message
[02:04] <Illysia> The basic problem is that there are already too many OOC features.
[02:04] <@weltall> the whole game is an ooc feature it runs in a screen

Things didn't get much better from this point on but if anybody wants to waste their time reading the rest of the almost pointless argument you can see it here: http://pastebin.com/keXk45xj

[Draklar]

When I talked with weltall, it seemed very clear to me that he's against /tell removal, but all the same supports /whisper as a short-distance articulation that appears in the main channel...

Despite being confusing, these logs say the same thing and I really don't see what's so wrong with weltall's approach to the issue.

[Geoni]

Well even I don't really think /tell should be removed. I think that there should be an option of /tell to be removed. That was Nova's original idea is to have the option. Now when it comes to whispering something on the main, there is always that fear that a player would take info they hear whispered on main and act like thier character can hear from such a distance. It's like announcing that your character is a BF priest/priestess on the forum, people will take OOC info and apply it ICly. Plus, the whisper tab isn't always used ICly for whispers, like somebody has mentioned there are other things that can't be heard because of maps or the 30 ft hearing radius, like knocking on a guild house door, or things characters do in vision that are more than 30 ft away but the other characters should still be able to see. There are situations like that to consider.

[verden]

[01:49] <@weltall> well i'm not going to copy and paste tell to make whispers you can forget that

(The statement above is what tells me this isn't going to happen. I'm sure that it is SO hard to copy and paste some code that has already been written.)

welltall's approach is fine. Why do you need the same functionality duplicated with a different name on it?

You sarcastically say that it must be so hard... you do realize that duplicating a function like this is not as simple as doing a cut and paste on a block of text in an editor?

References need to be changed across the codebase if this happens. If they are not all changed the first time around, they must be debugged.

/tell X /me whispers... is this really so hard? You can effectively roleplay in ANY game, nevermind of what the commands are labeled as.