Knives and Daggers

[Caraick]

Well, I've been using the Knives and Daggers skill since I first joined Planeshift on Caraick.  I remember the days when it was possible to two-shot ulbernauts with daggers, and it was also possible to take on Maulbernauts, with a bit of dueling skill.  Howeverm this is obviously not possible anymore, particularly with the new armor combat system.



That brings me to the main point of my post...  Recently, when testing out my daggers on Heavy Armor, I was able to do a whopping .09 damage to someone's foot.... Yes, I typed that correctly, .09 damage.  I was using q300 daggers, on q50 HA, in Bloody stance.  I had a level of 80 in daggers at the time, and the other player was maxed in Heavy Armor.  That was the only time I was ever able to do ANY damage at all.  All other hits failed to do any damage on the player.  This coming from a pretty high dagger level, and all basic stats maxed.  In duels, it is impossible for me to do any damage at all with daggers if someone is maxed in Heavy Armor.  That is absolutely ridiculous, and makes very little sense to me.  This system seems terribly unfair to dagger fighters, as the players who have maxed Heavy Armor are guaranteed near complete invulnerabilty from daggers and knives.  


The daggers being used in the medieval setting that Planeshift is loosely modeled after are not your typical little blades that might be 6 to 8 inches in length, as generally portrayed and/or thought.  No, the daggers used in that time period were frequently over  a foot long, some times as long as 20 inches, and weighing up to several pounds.  That kind of blade would do some serious damage against plate armor, and given it's narrow blade, would be very easy to slip in between plates as well.  A dagger of that size would be able to cut through materials and armor just as easily as a sword would.  Given that even a shortsword can make considerable damage on plate armor in the new system, why not a dagger of nearly the same size?  Take a hit on a helmet, for example.... If a longsword is stabbed directly at a helmet with enough force, the tip of the sword will go right through the helmet, most likely doing the same to the head inside the helmet as well.   If a 20 inch dagger blade is stabbed directly at a helmet, in the same manner, with the same amount of force, I guarantee you, the exact same effect will occur, perhaps with even more effect due to the better accuracy of a smaller blade

 That's not even counting in the skill that all expert dagger or knife fighters possess... If someone has spent months, even years training in the usage of daggers, you better believe they're pretty darn good at using them against different armor types.  Not to mention being maxed in strength, agility, and endurance, the necessary physical requirements would also be there as well.  A skilled dagger or knife fighter would be able to find weak points in bulky armor, such as HA plate, as well as be able to stab directly though some areas.  Granted, it may be extremely difficult or even impossible to stab directly through a plate mail chestpiece, or a legpiece, but hits on the arms, hands, feet, or head should do more damage then.  Maybe work in shoulder hits, where plate mail armor has vulnerable joints?  Regardless of how it's done, the system is completely lopsided against dagger fighters' favor..


My main point is this: The damage and effect of daggers in Planeshift currently is terribly skewed, especially with the new armor system.  This is unfair to those of us who have spent long hours training daggers, and use them as our primary fighting weapon.


I'm not typically the type to complain, and please don't perceive this as my own enraged ranting, I'm just looking for some answers, or some kind of change...  Technically speaking, we're all still just testing the game... Beta, right? 

 So please, please, please don't see this as me having a rant at the Devs or the settings team.  I have nothing but respect for all the Planeshift team, and I love PS dearly, and trying to help highlight what I think is a problem with a major combat weapon.



Comments, Discussion, Haters, and Feedback Welcome!!!

[bloodedIrishman]

Planeshift daggers have the aesthetic and effect of your average kitchen knife. Historically, medieval daggers ranged anywhere from one-half to two feet in length. In any case, I'm just emphasizing Caraick's good points. My main character wields daggers, and with the armor changes, he has been rendered useless in a fight. Finally returning to the Shift, what I can do is limited because I cant fight like I used to. I would definitely appreciate a change in how daggers are affected in the new armor system.

[Earowo]

Me thinks ye need to fight people in leather and chainmail

[bloodedIrishman]

That's not a real solution, just the temporary one. 

[khoridor]

What is unfair is not that daggers can't pierce heavy armors, it is that people can run and act swiftly in heavy armor; and can't fall and stay helpless like some turtle, vulnerable to kitchen knives. (Turtle... mmm... yummy!)

With heavy armors only needed in rare occasions, your daggers become useful again.
I think that's how balance is to be reached.

[Earowo]

if people in heavy armor would be like turtles on their backs, i would BEG the developers to implementing the ability to push people over

[bloodedIrishman]

Just asking for balance. 'tis all. Fried turtle'd be nice too. 

[Tessra]

Having read through this, I really agree with Caraick.  Medieval daggers were something to be feared, not something that would simply bounce off a set of HA.  [Course, I also know from personal experience that Car's daggers do much more damage than 0.09 on someone who doesn't have maxed HA   ]  Seeing how some of the dagger wielders train, and with their ability to move, darting in and out for attacks, it would seem entirely feasible for a high level dagger to penetrate the gaps in armor.  

I would also think, that training something like backstab would increase the effectiveness of a rear dagger attack.  But it's late, and I'm just rambling thoughts.

[Bonifarzia]

True, the different weapon and armor classes are poorly balanced at the moment. With unarmed meelee, which is much more expensive to train than any other close range combat skill, the base damage values are even worse than with daggers. However, notice that damage reduction is less of a problem in the more aggressive stances, Caraick. On the other hand, things may get even much worse when qualities of armors and weapons are balanced (given that q300 weapons can perform pretty bad against q50 armor of the same rank).

For the moment, I see three related feature requests/tasks on flypsray:

Pierce damage for daggers

Higher impact of armor types on dodges

and most of all

Imbalanced maximum trainable ranks

Also, it could make sense to request a new case in the combat manager (in addition to dodge, block, and hit) for critical hits that ignore the targets damage reduction values.

[khoridor]

I have to say, I never got the point of an armor skill.
And even less the fact that there are 3 of them; as if there was a skill to mine coal, another to mine iron, etc.

To me, all they do is complicate the balancing.

[Caraick]

Planeshift daggers have the aesthetic and effect of your average kitchen knife. Historically, medieval daggers ranged anywhere from one-half to two feet in length. In any case, I'm just emphasizing Caraick's good points. My main character wields daggers, and with the armor changes, he has been rendered useless in a fight. Finally returning to the Shift, what I can do is limited because I cant fight like I used to. I would definitely appreciate a change in how daggers are affected in the new armor system.

Thanks for the support, BloodedIrishman, I'm glad I'm not the only one out there seeing this...

What is unfair is not that daggers can't pierce heavy armors, it is that people can run and act swiftly in heavy armor; and can't fall and stay helpless like some turtle, vulnerable to kitchen knives. (Turtle... mmm... yummy!)

With heavy armors only needed in rare occasions, your daggers become useful again.
I think that's how balance is to be reached.

I'll agree that there needs to be a balance, but I would disagree that it's fair that daggers can't pierce Heavy Armors at all.... When someone is lower ranked, say more around the 50's, I can still do a decent amount of damage to the player.  It seems to beg the question: What is changing when players rank up in armor skill levels?  Obviously, if a dagger can do damage to someone on a lower level if hitting the chest, then it seems implied that the dagger is penentrating the plate... The armor quality doesn't change as the person ranks up, although I agreee with Bonifarzia, if/when 300q armor is introduced, things will be terribly unbalanced if they stay this way.  My point to this being: If a dagger can inflict damage on someone wearing HA on a lower level, why not on a higher level? The armor itself isn't changing, merely the skill of the person wearing it, but you can have all the skill in the world at wearing HA, it won't stop a 2 foot blade from penentrating your chest plate if it hits.....

True, the different weapon and armor classes are poorly balanced at the moment. With unarmed meelee, which is much more expensive to train than any other close range combat skill, the base damage values are even worse than with daggers. However, notice that damage reduction is less of a problem in the more aggressive stances, Caraick. On the other hand, things may get even much worse when qualities of armors and weapons are balanced (given that q300 weapons can perform pretty bad against q50 armor of the same rank).

For the moment, I see three related feature requests/tasks on flypsray:

Pierce damage for daggers

Higher impact of armor types on dodges

and most of all

Imbalanced maximum trainable ranks

Also, it could make sense to request a new case in the combat manager (in addition to dodge, block, and hit) for critical hits that ignore the targets damage reduction values.

To Bonifarzia, Thanks for the links to the flyspray, I'll certainly be reading those, and maybe even posting my own.  Pertaining to the more aggressive stances, Boni, I was in bloody during the test I was referring to in the first post, and got the whopping .09 damage, in the most aggressive stance possible.... I had a fair amount of hits, at least a dozen, and that was the only one which was able to do any damage at all.  In regards to the new case in the combat manager- Absolutely! I couldn't agree more...and that would bring me to Tessra's post concerning the implementation of backstab, and relating it to critical hits...  Again, I couldn't agree more... There needs to be some advantage to wielding daggers besides the slightly quicker timing, which can be equalled by a looted axe or sword...  By implementing backstab, or at least some method for a dagger wielder to have a much higher chance at critical hits then a sword fighter, the system could achieve a much greater level of balance.  That in addition to making it possible for daggers to penentrate armor at higher levels, see my comments above....


Thanks for all the comments and feedback, keep 'em coming!!

[Tessra]

I'll agree that there needs to be a balance, but I would disagree that it's fair that daggers can't pierce Heavy Armors at all.... When someone is lower ranked, say more around the 50's, I can still do a decent amount of damage to the player.  It seems to beg the question: What is changing when players rank up in armor skill levels?  Obviously, if a dagger can do damage to someone on a lower level if hitting the chest, then it seems implied that the dagger is penentrating the plate... The armor quality doesn't change as the person ranks up, although I agreee with Bonifarzia, if/when 300q armor is introduced, things will be terribly unbalanced if they stay this way.  My point to this being: If a dagger can inflict damage on someone wearing HA on a lower level, why not on a higher level? The armor itself isn't changing, merely the skill of the person wearing it, but you can have all the skill in the world at wearing HA, it won't stop a 2 foot blade from penentrating your chest plate if it hits.....

Precisely.  Nothing is changing physically with the armor, or how it is worn.  I suppose some might say that as one's skill with armor increases they might become better able to dodge/avoid strikes, but this would not account for a complete abolishment of hits.  More like how agility training can help one to dodge.  But even then, it should not completely obscure the fact that a skilled dagger wielder should be able to find the openings anyway.   

[Caraick]

*Caraick huggles the NOMer for agreeing with him, and tells Tessra to check her inbox*

[Vieg]

  I am training in daggers now... guttered for my bad option. When are the developers going to finally get right into the balancing, it obviously isn't right right now so they need to spend about 2 hours sitting there editing it till it seems to be correct. It seems to sound as easy as balancing a medieval weigh scale, it probably isn't. I think the longer dagger types are Galkards, don't know much about those. Are they better than 300Q daggers in combat?

[Tessra]

I've never even seen a galkard in game.... I dunno.