Crafting in this game is designed to be realistic????????????

[LigH]

Well ... sometimes they might prefer a "Hey, something is wrong, please check it again." over "ZOMGZ! It is teh suckz! I will quit!". After all, they are doing an unpaid job. And they are humans only. And receiving nothing but blames is not really an incentive.

On the other hand ... it is usually not the optimum to have the developers who implemented the feature test it as well, because they know the optimal strategy, they know how to avoid mistakes - better than every average user. Those who do not work at the optimum, don't understand the concept completely,  or even sometimes do mistakes, are much better in testing things which shall work reliably for a variety of users. (A.K.A. "Facility Manager test")

[Ingles]

  In case of smithing related skills, yes it is realistic, but as pointed out this is a game, and if players are not happy with the way things work and there voice is not Heard they will leave.
But this game is meant to be as realistic as possible.

General Information on the Setting

Our objective is to create a persistent world in a fantasy setting, in which every player will create a character and will be able to live, explore, and interact with maximum realism.

 Now that said and out way, let us be realistic. You have no time limit to play, no bill to play it, AND  unless I am mistaken it is a RP game, so until you have the skill to match your character fake it After all is that not half the fun of RP.
OR
 Just because you want it now, others might not want it now and build there character up as there skills go up. In my opinion far better way to evolve your character as you progress, rather than bang I am the best right from start
Just my pennies worth.

[Shatterkiss]

Well ... sometimes they might prefer a "Hey, something is wrong, please check it again." over "ZOMGZ! It is teh suckz! I will quit!". After all, they are doing an unpaid job. And they are humans only. And receiving nothing but blames is not really an incentive.

I tried posting a bug report, and was told that there was "no chance" of getting the heating/quenching mistake fixed.  If the developers refuse to reconsider changes that players hate they can't complain if the hate then gets transferred to them.

On the other hand ... it is usually not the optimum to have the developers who implemented the feature test it as well, because they know the optimal strategy, they know how to avoid mistakes - better than every average user. Those who do not work at the optimum, don't understand the concept completely,  or even sometimes do mistakes, are much better in testing things which shall work reliably for a variety of users. (A.K.A. "Facility Manager test")

I'm not sure if the developers really test these things out, honestly.  In the bug report a developer responded with information that ranged from accurate but somewhat misleading to blatantly false.

Oh, and I rechecked and they didn't double the training time for armor making, but they did increase it by a little over 50%.  Probably about 55-60%, I'd estimate.

[RlyDontKnow]

On the other hand ... it is usually not the optimum to have the developers who implemented the feature test it as well, because they know the optimal strategy, they know how to avoid mistakes - better than every average user. Those who do not work at the optimum, don't understand the concept completely,  or even sometimes do mistakes, are much better in testing things which shall work reliably for a variety of users. (A.K.A. "Facility Manager test")

I'm not sure if the developers really test these things out, honestly.  In the bug report a developer responded with information that ranged from accurate but somewhat misleading to blatantly false.

we do. however atm (especially for rules parts like crafting) the person who designed something is long gone, so you don't know 100% of the system or how it was designed. also fixing bugs in such things usually tends to show design issues (see also AoE spell angles)

such things have 1) to be fixed somehow, but that takes a lot longer than fixing a bug as it usually requires a lot more work 2) to be found. we don't have any active tester apart form LigH atm which is mostly unavailable for testing as he has another big task as most are MIA/AWOL.

hence we *do* have to rely on testing things ourselves which leads to the problems already mentioned (e.g. no time to extensively test progression, already knowing the perfect strategy, only smaller tests how it works on certain levels that seem to be significant, ...)

[Shatterkiss]

But when players report problems with updates, they're sometimes given inaccurate information about how things work or are simply told that there is (and I quote) "no chance" that things will be fixed.

[RlyDontKnow]

it's understanable that the full formulas/data won't be posted to just anyone, isn't it?

and I think you may misunderstood the comment.

I suppose you're referring to this one?

2) The problem was that this allowed people with zero skill to make max quality helms. So there no chance of redoing this fix.

it means: the bug that everyone can craft everything right from the beginning won't be re-introduced for convenience
it doesn't mean that the data related to practice, exp or in general progression won't be reviewed

[Shatterkiss]

How does that quote refer to the skill level at which people can make items?  That isn't what it's saying at all.  It was in response to the heating/quenching problem, and "making max quality helms" refers to quality, not the type of helms people can make.

Even if that is what the person was talking about, it still makes no sense.  If people shouldn't be able to make items with 0 skill, set a skill requirement for those items.  Changing the heating and quenching quality change has nothing to do with what you can make, only the quality of those items.

Also, the words "no chance of redoing this fix" make it seem like they won't change it.  

The only way I can interpret that is that they made the heating/quenching change to prevent people from heating and quenching spangens, spangenhelms, and the steel full spangenhelm to 300q.  Now, I get wanting to stop that.  Granted, the helms have no defense values listed and may not actually function as helms, but no other finished products can be heated/quenched after they're completed.  The problem is that they fixed a creaking floorboard by ripping up the entire floor.  A much better (and probably simpler) solution would have been to make those items unable to be heated.  And give them defensive stats.  They didn't do this.  They could have made those specific items not change quality when heated or quenched, like ingots or stocks.  They didn't do this.  They changed that property for everything, and refused to reconsider it when players complained about it.  If they had done one of the other fixes I wouldn't be posting right now.  I'd be playing, and either enjoying my planned IC vacation or making items to give away for an event I was going to do.

If they were worried about the ease of making helms (since they specifically mentioned helms) I should point out that I did a test a while back with making helms.  I worked for a couple days to get 120 or 130 helm kits of 300q, and then completed the helms.  Not one came out as a 300q helm.  At that time I had 35 armor making and 70 or 80 something blacksmithing.  Making helms has never been easy, and getting a 300q kit certainly doesn't meat you'll be getting a 300q finished product with 0 skill.  In fact, I'd say it's as impossible as it should be.

[Sarva]

Actually you could use the heat/quench trick to make sharpened sword blades and handles to 300Q before putting the blade and handle together thus greatly increasing your chances of making a high Q completed sword. I can see the heat/quench trick improving the Q of an item some but it shouldn't be used to turn a 100Q sharpened sword blade into a 300Q sharpened sword blade. Simple heating and quenching should not improve the Q of an item that much.

[Shatterkiss]

It is possible to do that.  It's also highly useful to be able to do that, as even with 300q ingots or stocks the quality of the item you're making is rarely 300q.  Perhaps that's what they should fix.

I should also point out that people can still use metallurgy or metallurgy+blacksmithing to make 300q stocks, which have the same value/quality table as finished products like swords and helms.  A stack of 12 300q steel ingots sells for the same amount as a 300q sabre made out of 12 ingots, and metallurgy is much faster to train.  If you have to use those ingots to get even a chance of 300q components, you're much better off just selling the metal to an NPC.  It's cheesy to hammer a stock to a higher quality (NPCs pay a premium for perfect rectangles?), but a large number of players do it.

If they want to make it harder to get 300q parts by heating and quenching that's fine.  It's kind of hard on newer smiths, as I remember doing multiple batches to get 1 300q part when my skills were in the 20's and 30's, but it's tolerable.  Instead, they remove the ability entirely.  Some items can be heated and hammered, but that's a very slow process (typically 1 minute per attempt per item) and it isn't even possible with most helm components.

[RlyDontKnow]

on a note: I don't know where you got the "they" from, but there's exactly one person taking care of almost everything rules related atm

that put aside:
1) quenching/heating never should've given a quality change at all. it's never been like that and slipped in due to mysterious reasons.
2) making q300 hasn't been easy at any time either and you don't need a q300 helm at all... those aren't just *extraordinary*, they're *perfect*- unless you're a master, you shouldn't expect to get much of those...
3) you don't need q300 parts to make a q300 final product, after all it has a lot less influence than you may think (i.e. depending on your level, it may not make a difference at all)

[LigH]

Like in cooking and baking.

"Perfect" quality is rather impossible there, as the quality of the produced food is only marginally dependent on the skills you have. A jam-layered bread with Q200 would already be a miracle.

Related to this fact, cooking and baking will always stay a hobby as long as this doesn't change. I know that developers made the cooking formulas even partially illogical (e.g. a bread being sliced into only 5 slices) to avoid cooks and bakers getting rich ... hah. Already the quality limits make cooking and baking not worth the efforts for a living.

So I have been told as well by many much more advanced cooks than myself -- Minks, Elady, Bonifarzia...

[mkarr]

on a note: I don't know where you got the "they" from, but there's exactly one person taking care of almost everything rules related atm

that put aside:
1) quenching/heating never should've given a quality change at all. it's never been like that and slipped in due to mysterious reasons.
2) making q300 hasn't been easy at any time either and you don't need a q300 helm at all... those aren't just *extraordinary*, they're *perfect*- unless you're a master, you shouldn't expect to get much of those...
3) you don't need q300 parts to make a q300 final product, after all it has a lot less influence than you may think (i.e. depending on your level, it may not make a difference at all)

So let me get this straight. The one attribute of the crafting system in this game that made it all somewhat worthwhile and semi-rewarding actually snuck in by accident?? And before you type out you're sarcastic reply, what is the point to a realistic game if all you get out of it is a colossal waste of time? Are you planning to pay people a salary to play your game or what?

[Sillamon]

Mkarr,

You see, the folks who made plainshift believe that its fun to click on things millions of times and get nowhere. Therefore, adding more tedious action and less benefit makes the game more fun. See how it works now?

If you always look at things from a sane perspective, you wont understand the machinations of the insane.

[novacadian]

So let me get this straight. The one attribute of the crafting system in this game that made it all somewhat worthwhile and semi-rewarding actually snuck in by accident?? And before you type out you're sarcastic reply, what is the point to a realistic game if all you get out of it is a colossal waste of time? Are you planning to pay people a salary to play your game or what?

If one plays PS for a longer term; with the main goal being RP; then character development should be a secondary thing on the road to RPing. The changes (although surely not etched in stone during this period of beta testing) seems like a sound one to me. It would be nice to see a fully maxed out character, making 300q anything or topped out in any weapon, a rare species. Just to get 300q anything should be a long term game goal and not a matter of dropping round Hern's on any evening.

That is my opinion, anyway, from one who values the RP over the PLing. That is not to mean that my character is not developed; yet should what she is developing in be toned down it is fine by me. Such changes will make more sense, and be easier to swallow after a wipe, putting all characters back at the same starting block.

Even the fact that there will likely be a wipe should put the PLers on notice anyway. Can't wait to hear that outcry. 

- Nova

[Sarva]

It wasn't that long ago that making any weapon of 300Q was extremely rare and weapons of such quality costs 100,000s of trias. I have seen a player character be able to make 300Q weapons with Black smith and sword making in the 30's range ( although this was very rare to get a 300Q item in this range).