I need help... (turned into a complain)

[neko kyouran]

@Aiwendil, all

much better.   

and to expand on a few things that were brought up as well: 

regarding the subject of moderation on the forum; there are some internal issues I have had and discussed with Talad from time to time in regards on how a proper forum should be run.  many of the issues stem from the forum being very old, with little to no upkeep performed on it from an administration level.  I do what I can with the rights I have, but until a full time Admin is designated, issues will appear from time to time.  but as I said, that's an internal issue, and I hope I can get it resolved sooner rather than later.  I'm sure you'll all notice once it does though.  There's plenty of changes and updates that can be made to make this place far better than what it currently is.

 and to tie into that, the stickies; they are in need of going over and updating.  i have a list a mile long of stuff that needs to be done.  the problem is getting approval and the ability/time to do it.  but again, more internal issues to work out that i hope will be addressed sooner rather than later.  as far as the specific GM sticky that was brought up in this thread, I will talk over with the team to see if they would like to append it to better word it with the examples Sarv gave earlier in the thread.

[Sangwa]

Let me sum up my previous remark: your big posts are not worth reading. The real help is only done by developers and players who can have fun on this testing phase and who don't go around saying there's a conspiracy to hide problems. That helps with nothing and it's completely idiotic. There are flaws because people are human, there are flaws because some of the rules have been made by humans. No one is trying to create a flawed game without the rest of us knowing. Geez.

Players who complain repetitively and in an annoying tone simply serve to create the repulse the developers have developed towards player feedback.

So, to make it short, it would be better if you threw a hissing fit and got the hell out of my face.

[RlyDontKnow]

as I don't have much time right now just some "way too short" reply to the off-topic in here as I think there's already been everything said for the topic itself:

To me the best example of this problem was the intro system. The team tried to listen to the players and the system didn't work so well. I wouldn't call it a failure but it really needed some fine tuning. However, it felt like the team was embarrassed and tried to avoid listening and acting so directly after that when it was unnecessary. It's perfectly reasonable that the first implemented iteration of a system might not work so great, there's nothing wrong with having to scrap an idea or two or rework them.

Very true. Scrapping the whole system because it didn't work right from the start and then using it all the time as an example of what happens if devs listen to players was...not very ideal. First an introduction system would be still a nice addition and second by this logic half of PS had to be thrown away as it doesn't work correctly in the first implementation.

the system wasn't scrapped as a whole. after all it's still intact the way it was left and is simply disabled, so I'd like to add a comment regarding features in this state (which are quite a few):
the problem is there are quite a few half-done things that need to be finished of which it's mostly even unclear how exactly they should look like in the end (combat moves and a bunch of scripting features among others) which would need quite some design work and a lot of time to finish. on the other hand a whole bunch of bugs and feature requests pop up on a daily basis that needs attention as well (not even including the resolving of design issues and optimizations that have to be done, too). and that's just the engine side.

or making a long thing short: there are several thousand hours work-time that have piled up by some means that are all semi-critical and have to be done more soon than not (especially bigger tasks like a db redesign, rests of moving on to shaders (e.g. effects), sound issues, ...) while the team is really small (only 2 devs - weltall and me with me not being fully counted atm as I don't have much time right now due to the amount of workload I've gotten lately due to my studies and some financial issues) and a few prospects that are still new and trying to get used to the system (hence cannot do such big tasks).

such a situation leads - of course - to focusing on critical tasks where needed and the bigger tasks as many other things depend on those (and it's pretty much wasted time to fix-up a somewhat broken system as you'll have to port that as well once there's a new one) and maybe some smaller tasks where applicable.

(that's been engine taken as example, but art, rules and settings have similiarily big tasks piled up that need to be done grouped with a bunch of bug fixes that need to be done, too)

so as a resumee: if you're told "do it yourself", it's not because we're mean or don't like an idea, it's because there's already such a huge to-do list that everyone is really already busy with something else. and sure, maybe we're "chasing down trees instead of worrying about the forest", but I personally think of it as "you have to start somewhere".

[Sangwa]

Oh, so you're not hoarding these errors and erroneous approaches so you can one day laugh at everyone? Man, that conclusion took a lot of reasoning to be reached.

These guys are just trolling. You and Neko are proof enough that the dev team cares about opinions. I mean, you're here talking to them when anyone reasonable can understand a developer team can't go around following everyone's whim when most of these whims are not practical like "make another dev team to listen to players and heed their every word" when it seems there aren't devs enough to keep up with the current work.

The developers are doing a great job, even if they're taking incomprehensible loads of time. But maybe they are incomprehensible because there's little visibility or knowledge of the work it actually takes.
You'll always have people complaining about it because they think the time and effort they've spent trying to collaborate when no one has forced them to has been wasted. When the truth is they just have too much time on their hands and too little patience.
It also seems that this displeasure of them is important, but it is only apparent because people who are glad with the game do not bother with writing about it, since they're having fun in-game and well, it's just a game and not like you're giving them a job... While people that are displeased seem to focus their time mentioning it over and over again because they feel its their obligation.

[Aiwendil]

Good to see at least Sangwa will always keep up a good argumentative atmosphere here...as long as he stays this time.

But yes I knew the introduction system is still in the sourcecode..stumbled upon it. With scrapped I more meant abandoned and never taken up again. While I can understand very well that every dev wants to work on things fun for him/her it's sometimes hard to understand why some older broken system don't get much attention but instead something newer is added that might just end up neglected  like some of the older system. (*mumbles something about NPC voices*). But in the end the ongoing development (in terms of code) and flaws of PS weren't what turned off most long-time-players that left. If that had been the issue those would never had played the game for such a long time. If I remember right most of the biggest arguments I had in these forums were about the "culture" of PS...to use an recent example: Implementing mounts codewise for sure wasn't anything bad...failing to give guidance how to probably use them in roleplays and forcing players to endless OOC questing to get one on a RP server was. But that was only my view...I think all that arguing had something good in the end. It lead to a new kind of playerbase who much better fit the vision of the PS team than the one in the past did. And it helped those who don't fit in to realize it.

[Sangwa]

The problem isn't requiring quests or lots of time. The quest to get the mount seems plausible: not everyone is qualified to have one because the sellers require to know if you'll treat it well and because you have to be a smart ass with access to the winch, since not every peasant should get a mount. Actually, the only thing wrong with that quest is when someone asks you to do a smuggling job and that someone gets caught or not 10000 times. It makes it a single player quest just like that.

The Developers have spent hours designing the single player quest system we have and they aren't going to give up on it over the night. You seem to understand this and so you should try to help accordingly: if they make new single player quests, we nag them. If they make new multiplayer quests or modify the old single player quests, we praise them.

We can't be too repetitive though, or sound too angry or we risk the fun of some people who are not into discussing like us.

[Sarva]

OK I have seen this complaint before that players are forced todo OOC quests in order to get X item.  Ah no players are not forced to do anything.  Players should realize that choosing to play a certain player type may provide certain limitations, if the player is going to stay IC all the time. For example if you choose to play an evil character, maybe a black flame type, then you should realize that it would be OOC to do a bunch of goodie goodie type quests just to get a certain item.  After all there are a lot of things I want in RL but can't get because I can't or chose not to what is required to get those items. DAMN the Devs of RL and how unfair they are trying to force me into doing OOC things just to get some of the pretty pretty items I want in RL.  The problem is players seem to not want to be limited by the type of character they choose to play. They want to be able to get all the special items without the limitations of having to stay IC.  Also just because you can't get an item via the quest, because the quest would be OOC, doesn't mean you are doomed to never getting that item. The item might be available via a GM event, where the event is more IC for your character, or you could buy the items from someone or maybe make arrangements with another character to get the item for you in return for some deal you make.

It is my understanding that when the new factions system comes then the path a player chooses, ie what factions they chose to go after, will have real limitations since for example I believe it will be impossible to have a 100 faction in both good and evil at the same time and each faction at the highest level will have certain privileges and or rewards that are unique to that faction.

Now the one area I think could use some improvement is that when talking to the initial NPC more details about what the quest involves should be given so the player can better decide if the quest is IC or OOC for their character.

[Sangwa]

What makes the quests OOC here is not that they go against characters, Sarva. If that was it, Awiendil there wouldn't be exclaiming.
The problem here is that most quests are implicitly OOC because they are single player quests. They're quests which plenty of parts your character can't claim to have done, because you can't claim that you've reported a smuggler when everyone else has reported him thousands of times exactly for the same lost item and nothing happened to him.

[novacadian]

The problem here is that most quests are implicitly OOC because they are single player quests. They're quests which plenty of parts your character can't claim to have done, because you can't claim that you've reported a smuggler when everyone else has reported him thousands of times exactly for the same lost item and nothing happened to him.

Maybe the NPC could have its name changed each time the quest is solved; with a call to the random name generator. Even if the list were static with 100->1000 pre-generated name, it would be more like...

 "I reported NPC1 again last night,"
"Oh yeah I reported NPC2 the other day."
'At least we have not heard from NPC999 for some time!"

Hope NPC names are not hard coded. 

Suggested as a quick fix, only.

- Nova

[Illysia]

Ok, now we have confirmation that the dev team is in fact tiny now... (keep in mind it wasn't always this small) (old argument #1) Umm... yeah... That's kinda why people complained about a need to change direction as something about the way the team is run must run off help. People that I wouldn't have even suspected as being fed up with working on PS as say a dev left for that reason. I was shocked to hear about Karyuu as the last time I talked to her it was the players driving her nuts but I don't think striking out at players is what got her a ban.

There were and still are tons of people that are willing to help and yet it always fizzles out regardless of the fact that there are obviously many people that feel strongly about the game and at one time were ready and eager to help... All of that help disappating might have been described as people coming and going in the past but considering that people that just didn't have anymore time to spend are fewer in numbers than those that got fed up, someone needs to acknowledge that there is a pattern and get on it. Cycles come back to were they started eventually, this is just a slower downward spiral. And contrary to the beliefs of certain person, Xillix didn't steal away help, people went to where they felt their help would actually be listened to and *gasp* used in the way it was offered.

Long story short, beggars can't be choosers but things like Talad's little rampages or weltall's little rants about do it it yourself and stop bothering us prove that it isn't abundantly clear throughout the team that the devs are far more dependent on the players and their help than players are on the devs and their game. Not that anyone has to be condescending to each other but until people like Talad get it out of their heads that players should be grateful to hassle with and work on their less than beta game, there's still going to be that tension that will eventually push people to say "it's not worth it. I give up." All lot of the time it felt like help given was expected to be given as thought it were somehow owed... like you were a paid employee, like there was no other higher concerns. And it was always stated that people worked on the game becuase they were happy but the fact that people would just leave or disappear proves otherwise. Happy people check in even if they don't have time to come back but there are a lot of tumbleweeds blowing through these days. There is too much willful ignorance and condescension for the team to sustain more than a few member for for a long period of time. Nobody owes anything to this game and everybody can walk away from it and the world would still spin, which is why the entire team, not just a few reading the forums, should come down a few pegs if they want players to rise to the occasion. Just expecting players to do better without some changed in the culture of the team is like running rat wheel... you'll get nowhere fast.



And about being forced to do quests, even when they didn't fit the character... (Old argument #2). Yes Sarva but that was the kinds of stuff older RPers were trying to get the community out of the habit of doing when we were told to more or less shut up and pack it up as the new group had their own ideas about RP... funny how better RP would actually take down some of the mechanics complaints as players would be too busy making their world the way they wanted it without new mechanics rather than sitting around waiting for devs to code in limits so they don't have to think about it. Not that all complaints would disappear but I do find it funny that many of the complaints of the older players, who have largely left (and a few decent newer players as well), are starting to resurface from newer mouths. I know it sounded like useless nagging but it was just critique from experience. I imagine that in time the community will mature again and probably get back to the point it was at but it was unnecessary to go so far back in the first place.

If there was still a larger body of people that already knew how to limit their characters without hamstringing them, there is a chance that repetitive quests would be more ignorable as players would be relying more on each other for input than NPCs... But supposedly the new community had solutions for stuff like that which is why the input from older players saying stuff like this was unnecessary.

[Sangwa]

Novacadian: I think the solutions is _much_ simpler. You just need to ignore the specific part. You need a mount? Then just go speak with the concerned people and they'll tell you what you need. Why would you need to deal with a smuggler beforehand? Just so it looks cool? Well, it doesn't look cool. It actually looks crappy.

Illysia: Easy with the keyboard, specially when you're repeating your old ideas. Most of us know the license and the Talad aren't the best things that happened to us, but these are things which are complicated to solve and we can't just wish them into reality.
And developers getting an attitude is pretty normal, considering the number of times they listen to the same stuff and to annoying brats that think they're witty.

About the quests, I can't see anything wrong with doing a quest OOC optionally (to get an item.) You want the item, but you don't want to roleplay how you got it... Sure, do it. Just like we roleplay having these clothes or that ones when we don't actually have them. Or how our character should have this cool sword but we don't want to say it was Trasok who did it. Not a biggie, since just some few characters fall into this category. These are details that should be worked out, but that do not require any urgency.
What has some urgency are the single player quests since no one can roleplay them.

[Illysia]

Oh this is nothing Sangwa. I wrote this over the course of a day, not counting time spent formating it (which was a pain mind you).

Nah, even quests are not that urgent, what is needed is putting the emphasis back on player to player RP, and not just that "it's up to players to work it out" policy either. Player to player interaction, and in particular RP, has always been the game's saving grace, whether that was recognized or not. Part of the reason people aren't caught up enough in RP to completely ignore OOC aspects of quests is that there isn't enough people to be caught up with. Part of the reason for the lack of people is that there aren't enough deep RPs too keep people around. It's a self perpetuating problem, but if you deal with the RP aspect, you can more easily get people in RPs that will keep them around and you can start a positive feedback loop.

[RlyDontKnow]

Novacadian: I think the solutions is _much_ simpler. You just need to ignore the specific part. You need a mount? Then just go speak with the concerned people and they'll tell you what you need. Why would you need to deal with a smuggler beforehand? Just so it looks cool? Well, it doesn't look cool. It actually looks crappy.

you don't have to. just because an NPC asks you to do something doesn't mean you have to.

What has some urgency are the single player quests since no one can roleplay them.

let's remove NPC quests then \o/ it's totally OOC brado needs his tavern cleaned off rats a thousand times per day or that jomed keeps asking for mushrooms, too.
honestly: that one simply falls into the "unrealistic, but accepted" category. it's always been like that and I've never seen even a single mmo that'd be an exception to that rule. why? because it simply doesn't make sense as nobody would be able to quest at all if it was layed out in a realistic way (e.g. that nice guard really needing his lunch only once a day, that shield having to be repaired only each few weeks/months, ...) - there'd be less quests to do per day than there are players online even on ezpc

[Illysia]

it's always been like that and I've never seen even a single mmo that'd be an exception to that rule. why? because it simply doesn't make sense as nobody would be able to quest at all if it was layed out in a realistic way.

Actually, not entirely true as mabinogi's "job" system does in fact work that way. It's limited, not everybody does the same job for the same NPC and you can only do a job for that NPC once in an in game day. But aside from Mabinogi and it's "would be lovely for an RP game" mechanics, most MMOs are not in anyway RP oriented nor do they have mechanics suitable for RP, aside from the fact that your character is capable of being a class that you can't be and looking like you don't. As I have always said, PS needs to make up it's mind, either it's a role playing game or just an RPG like any other. The constant switching back and forth is part of why progress is hindered, its focus is apparently still not well enough defined to come down squarely for one side or the other and yes, sometimes things have to be that black and white to make progress.

[Aiwendil]

OK I have seen this complaint before that players are forced todo OOC quests in order to get X item.  Ah no players are not forced to do anything.

What makes the quests OOC here is not that they go against characters, Sarva. If that was it, Awiendil there wouldn't be exclaiming.

Thanks Sangwa. Yes...seems no matter what I say and how it's always possible to misunderstand for some people. Quests are OOC at all...no way that they can be taken IC in any way. I would never bother to complain about people doing quests that don't fit their character as they are OOC in general already. If someone wants to do quests that is fine...if someone wants to play a baddie but also does the goodie quests also no problem..they are OOC already. So sorry Sarva, but I disagree with you there. Players are free to do whatever quests they want to do as it doesn't matter...none of them can be used for character development anyway. As long as people understand that three people in the tavern ranting about the the same hydlaa guard who send each of them to get his gauntlets can't be take serious I see no problem with that at all..just don't include them in any RP you do.
But this is just an example why it got so hard for me to stay constructive in these forums. I didn't say anything of what Sarva assumed...still not sure how this can be read into my words at all. But no matter what is said about this topic...the only thing remaining in people's minds will be that I complained people can't get all glyphs just because they play a bad char. This has nothing to do what I wanted to say...but is always the same again. Like I seem to hate all game mechanics...while I had one of the better trained chars in PS.

The Developers have spent hours designing the single player quest system we have and they aren't going to give up on it over the night. You seem to understand this and so you should try to help accordingly: if they make new single player quests, we nag them. If they make new multiplayer quests or modify the old single player quests, we praise them.

Have fun with that..I won't do anything to help PS anymore. I helped including the patches I submitted while I still played in the source-code because when I posted them I still wanted to help...and not retreating from this now. But I won't try anything new or offer more help than this...PS is not worth it in my view and I got annoyed enough about it already.