PS SkunkWorks Project 01 - derailed part

[Illysia]

hehe... funny how without the usuals complaining about the same old problems over and over, the problems still haven't gone away magically and neither have the complaints. I guess people complaining about the fact that the problems have not been dealt with is not the actual problem. Maybe that's why people kept complaining about them... Ya know Neko, here would be a good place for a split and shame on you Aiwe for potentially derailing with your presence.

[Getoran]

Wow, I read the link you posted and I don't really know what to say. I'm kind of shocked. As I don't know the people involved in this conflict, neither their history, I won't judge anybody here. I only want to say one thing:

This document does huge damage to the Planeshift recruitement. The internet does not forget and everyone who reads that log will think twice about applying for the team. It would be in the best interest of Planeshift to completely open up their development process. As it seems from reading the document, there already is a developer mailing list, but it is closed to the public like the rest of the development process. I think the only way to undo the damage of this document is to open the mailing list to the public and publish all future developer meetings. Otherwise this document will stand on its own for years. It would be in the best interest of PS to prove that this incident was a one time occurance.

[Illysia]

Wow, poor thing... you must be really new to this whole debate if you are shocked and aren't aware that telling the team when they are shooting themselves in the foot is currently considered bashing. Not to mention this kind of stuff has happened enough to where you can't frame dealing with this game (as anything other than a player) as short of being a battle/disaster zone...

Just look at the discussion for the wiki page for PS... that doesn't even have to do with the development or look at forums in other places like the MMORPG PS forum. Even though the issues and contenders change, it all practically follows the same self destructive template... The best advice for someone that doesn't just shrug that kinda stuff off is just to avoid PS's development problems and enjoy the game the best you can. Trying to help without the "everybody that doesn't say 'everything is great, its just in development' are just whiners," mentality generally won't get you very far. Or worse yet, you end up contributing and then burn out hard and leave.


For what it is worth though, as bad as some of the remaining devs can get, most don't come close to Talad for throwing hissy fits. So, avoiding direct dealings with Talad can buy you some time before burning out should you insist on jumping into the fray.


Look what you've gone and got me doing Aiwendil... I told myself I was just going to let people find out for themselves what they are getting themselves into. But since you are nice enough to warn people, now I have to... I can't let you be nicer than me.

[Getoran]

Wow, poor thing... you must be really new to this whole debate if you are shocked and aren't aware that telling the team when they are shooting themselves in the foot is currently considered bashing. Not to mention this kind of stuff has happened enough to where you can't frame dealing with this game (as anything other than a player) as short of being a battle/disaster zone...

Well, I'm used to lots of hot and aggressive debates on open-source mailing list. You can pick pretty much any open-source project i.e. the Linux kernel. From outside this often looks like people absolutely hate each other, but in the end they can still work together because everyone can say what he has to say.

What me kind of shocked was the company-style the project is run. That is something you usually don't see on projects where people donate their spare time to work for free. Of course you have hierarchies and in the end the project/department leader decides how things are done. But at least your a free to speak your mind, even if the decissions is against your proposal in the end. I've never seen someone getting fired from an opensource project. Usually they either leave on their own, because they can no longer work with the other guys or they lack the time to do their work and someone else takes over.

[Illysia]

Well that is one of the unfortunate things that makes PS unique... working together always works for awhile and then falls apart for various reasons, less so in recent times. However, that corporate type culture part of the problem. It is quite easy to get the impression that you are just underpaid (by that I mean not at all :p ) labor rather than a contributor. However, if you can code it seems to be a bit better as then you are more needed and thus more likely to be treated at least somewhat considerately.

But one way or the other, free speech that isn't just praise gets either ignored or struck down. It wasn't always quite this bad though... At least not in my opinion. :/ But there were more devs with a wider range of perspectives in the past. Eliseth does seem to be pretty open though, so you might just want to stick with the skunkworks if you'd like to attempt helping.

[Getoran]

It is quite easy to get the impression that you are just underpaid (by that I mean not at all :p ) labor rather than a contributor.

These are the words I was looking for. The document reads as if people are treated as laborers instead of contributers. I think that's not acceptable for an open-source project.

Eliseth does seem to be pretty open though, so you might just want to stick with the skunkworks if you'd like to attempt helping.

No, for the moment I will hold back. I would like to read for myself how the daily routine is handled. If they ever open up to the public, I will reconsider. I woud prefer working on some graphics as I wanted to get into blender for a long time. My daily job is C++ development and I'm not sure if I want the same coporate style routine in my spare time. Let's see how the skunk project works out.

[Talad]

Getoran you are right, and the document of Illysia is just a rant of non sense, and has been deleted now. I'm open to listen to complains, but things went too far in that post, and really it's not acceptable considering the fact Illysia never been part of the development team, so has no idea of how things work inside the team.

If you are interested in development, get in contact with the developers and be careful to distinguish reality from trolling in here.

[Geoni]

Burn all the evidence! 

[Talad]

I just took some time to read the start of this thread and it's just awful how Illysia can say such things, and it's totally unrespectful of what we are doing in here.

I would like to remember that we are providing a FREE service and a FREE game, which required thousands of hours of work, which is provided as it is and it's under development. If you want to see a better PlaneShift then contribute to its development.

Inventing stories about "how evil are the devs who don't listen to us" is just ridiculous, considering we are the most accessible game development team I know of.

I hope people like that will never play our game, because we are not making it for them.

[Jacula]

At first the idea of contributing to PS enticed me, truly. This game holds countless special memories, many that I still appreciate.

So I started asking around, in hope of getting some insight in what the team is like. I came to have a discussion with Eckar shortly after, who told me of the dictatorial and spiteful bullying that took place within the team, by Weltall especially if I am not mistaken. That was long ago however, and it soon came to be forgotten.

Slightly discouraged, although still inspired to apply I began to search for new insight. This was around the time the previously posted [now deleted] pastebin surfaced, and upon reading it I realized that what transpires behind closed doors was not as productive and motivating as I had at first hoped. Nor was it as spiteful as Eckar had described, because the only thing I saw was a project spiraling out of control, with a distinct lacking of maturity and respect. Traits who had seemingly been manifested by no other than the project leader himself.

In truth, I don't see how anyone would contribute to such a train wreck.

Trolling and lurking aside, take the time to read the logs Talad, and realize that you where wrong. Acceptance is the first step in a process of much needed change, is it not?

Best of luck in future endevours.

[weltall]

At first the idea of contributing to PS enticed me, truly. This game holds countless special memories, many that I still appreciate.

So I started asking around, in hope of getting some insight in what the team is like. I came to have a discussion with Eckar shortly after, who told me of the dictatorial and spiteful bullying that took place within the team, by Weltall especially if I am not mistaken. That was long ago however, and it soon came to be forgotten.

Slightly discouraged, although still inspired to apply I began to search for new insight. This was around the time the previously posted [now deleted] pastebin surfaced, and upon reading it I realized that what transpires behind closed doors was not as productive and motivating as I had at first hoped. Nor was it as spiteful as Eckar had described, because the only thing I saw was a project spiraling out of control, with a distinct lacking of maturity and respect. Traits who had seemingly been manifested by no other than the project leader himself.

In truth, I don't see how anyone would contribute to such a train wreck.

Trolling and lurking aside, take the time to read the logs Talad, and realize that you where wrong. Acceptance is the first step in a process of much needed change, is it not?

Best of luck in future endevours.

eckar? ok i'm quite tired of this and i'll tell you some things about this "eckar".
1) this "nice person" has been making people go away from the game due to her problems i can list people like vialint and lelarar. these people where being annoyed even in rl due to her behaviour. This great person even made velatrius create all the resources for her guild (sites, etc) and actually have him do things he didn't want to do against his friends. and what happened 6 months later? you can't stay enough with me so you can't lead this guild. and the day after while he was offline he was kicked out. Yeah great person
2) she put in a bad situation a gm like tazen which i think a lot of people liked here while he was around.
3) she started putting around voices i was telling the gm to ignore her which is just a lie. If she comes at the end of an event she won't get attention because it's too late and the scope is just the gm prizes at that point. Except that, which was the sanatorium introduction event, and she had no right at that point to be in the event i don't think nothing else could happen.
4) she didn't even have the decency to keep a promise.

so really get your facts before acclaiming someone as a victim because she looked always a victim only at the end you end up as a victim if you are her target. it happened 4 times at least while she was in game.

[Geoni]

Go do something productive and develop something that isn't your putrid smelling opinion, Weltall. Saying these things directly about somebody who played this game and left it on their own free will doesn't deserve to be indirectly harassed like this. The things you say, like this for a good example, only cause you to make yourself look like very unprofessional, and furthermore, personal attacks against another person makes you look like...um...what's the word for it...a troll! There are threads like this that certain members of the team do not like because they temporarily pull the masks off the PS team to reveal true faces. Some don't even take the precaution of wearing a mask. *cough*. Yes, but of course there are those great almighty beings of the forum that have the power to delete posts. They delete things that are critiquing the team and its head, and there are some that do NOT like that. They go, and they burn all the evidence. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised to see myself burned along with a few others that weren't and aren't afraid to speak up.

[weltall]

my putrid opinion? just the fact you know this says the last point is the truth. If it's an opinion the fact she put around private informations about me while i didn't i don't know what can be called truth  at this point. She left the game of her own? finally after giving issues in the life of people. sure you are free to think i'm lying but then don't come crying if you get burnt. if you do personal attack which have nothing to do with the game i personally defend period.
i was so much bullying her that i've not deleted her char, not removed values from it,not banned her and even not followed the gm during that period. Afaik most of them knew nothing about this.
Ah geoni thanks i do many productive things which this forums detract me from.

[Talad]

Geoni, your insults are unacceptable, you are banned from this forums and the game. Weltall is an honorable member of our team, who works harder on PS that you may even imagine. He is the reason why 0.5 exists and your comments are just unrespectful of his work. I see you don't like the game, so stay away from it.

[Drey]

There has always been an interesting underworld of internal politics about the game though, spanning from dev team to power levelers and all those inbetween