In-game paper issues

[Raikana]

First of all: I'm upset.
Second: i don't care if you are going to insult me for what i'll say!

The paper came to it's end.... and Raikana too.
Why? Because of some ignorant rules, and because of some ignorant masters.
My only purpose was to make a good paper and to help RP. For that, i needed to be free to publish the IC content my character see, and hear. BUT.... no.

Do you know the rule that says: "If someone come to you OOC and say [don't publish this] you MUST not publish, or you get banned?"

It's true. This rule exists to preserve RP, but CANNOT BE APPLIED TO A NEWSPAPER! God....use your brain....please....HOW CAN YOU APPLY THIS TO A NEWSPAPER? Is simply stupid. And crazy.    If you apply this rule to the paper, the paper will become RIDICULOUS. Can you immagine? All the people can come and ORDER me to don't publish this and that....is sufficient to use brackets. THATS ENORMOUSLY STUPID.

I whished that masters would allow the paper to be free.... but no.

I talked to the people and many seem to be agree. "Oh... if someone is not agree you should not publish". And there it goes the free press. And there it goes the independence.

So i deleted my account. I will NOT wait to be banned. I ban myself.

Now i'm very sad for all the time i loss, but that time will not come back to me. Its gone.
I though this was a place that worth my work.... well.... i can say the people worth it but the masters NO. They are too small minded, too strict on their ridiculous rules, that they can't understand the reality of the things. THAT RULE CANNOT BE APPLIED TO A NEWSPAPER. IT KILLS INFORMATION. CAN YOU UNDERSTAND? .... of course not. That's the problem. 

Now. I would like to say goodbye to: Cirerey, Urriro, Pontifer, Avilay, Leraider, Mekora, Roled, Malunga, Famiel, Sulaika, Dannae, Dramborleg, Boeven, Poez, Cinade, Xitop, Tuathanach, Yahh, Perlan, Ketta, Sanrai, Glaciusor, Saili, Jilata, Jelora, Kisoji, Gartheiz, Geceni, Lilura, Muradin, Eriton, Kaynna, Vilthis (ops...Broken Lance ), Hangatyr, Medillo, Realito and all the people that deserve my respect, all the friends that supported my work. If i forget some friend please forgive me. I love you all!


Now you will ask: Why you don't delete this thread too? Because i want the people to KNOW why i'm going away.

PS: Mishka has nothing to do with this. If you think this is about mishka you don't understand the real meaning of this.

[Maisent]

I'm sorry I didn't get part of your speech. But I am sad you go you were such a good writer! I actually liked your papers! If you quit because of some GM rule that you can't publish a newspaper then that's just ridiculous....But don't worry I don't think you are the only one that quit because of the ridiculously strict rules of the GM's. Though i'm not sure if you are actually tlking about GM's 0.0 .

[Raikana]

Oh...I can publish.
But they warned me that if anyone involved in a news, come to me OOC and say [don't publish]  <--(with brackets, of course......the brackets are magic!   )
i MUST NOT publish, or they will have to ban me.

What do you think? Can someone do a paper like that?  

Nevermind. I'm not longer in game. And i will never come back.

You can't understand how i feel. I'm terribly upset!

If they keep doing like that soon this game will die.

PS: If you are planning to make a newspaper.... do it elsewhere! This is not the right place.

[Sarva]

Sigh let's get the situation correct.

THer eis no rule against publishing a newspaper in game. Here is the situation.

There was discussion about what the situation is if a player objected OOC about having something about them printed in the newspaper.  It was pointed out that there is a game rule against harassment.  Generally harassment is defined as continuing to do something that bothers someone else after they have asked you to stop doing what ever it is that is bothering you.  Depending on the situation going ahead and publishing something in a IG paper could be viewed as harassment. All the details would have to be looked into though before it could be said one way of the other if the situation was harassment.

Basically Raikana wanted total freedom to print what ever she wanted in the paper. This can't be given. For one thing given the settings and the type of government the Octrachy is such a thing as freedom of the press isn't known, so it would be rather OOC to call for such a thing.

Raikana was told a couple of times today by the GMs that she could print what ever she wanted in the paper but if we got complaints from players we would have to look into it and if we decided that there was a kind of harassment going on we would have to do something about it. Remember this is suppose to be a game and games are suppose to be fun.  You shouldn't have your fun at the expense of another player though. Also remember that you can't drag others into your RP if others don't want to participate in your RP. Also everyone should try to respect the wishes of other players. If another player has a reason they don't want something published you should try and respect that request.

[Dannae]

Raikana, I am so sorry it came to this for you and the paper.... both will be missed immensely. I have no idea what happened to cause this situation outside of what you've said above, but I find it sad that something Raikana saw IC is not being allowed to be written about. Will they start gagging people next?

Maybe you and your paper should go underground where the truth can be told. I would encourage any future papers to keep quiet about upcoming content and let the complaints come after the distribution as in real newspapers. Then if you find yourself at fault, a retraction can be printed in the following issue.

Goodbye my friend. 

[Raikana]

Sigh let's get the situation correct.

THer eis no rule against publishing a newspaper in game. Here is the situation.

There was discussion about what the situation is if a player objected OOC about having something about them printed in the newspaper.  It was pointed out that there is a game rule against harassment.  Generally harassment is defined as continuing to do something that bothers someone else after they have asked you to stop doing what ever it is that is bothering you.  Depending on the situation going ahead and publishing something in a IG paper could be viewed as harassment. All the details would have to be looked into though before it could be said one way of the other if the situation was harassment.

Basically Raikana wanted total freedom to print what ever she wanted in the paper. This can't be given. For one thing given the settings and the type of government the Octrachy is such a thing as freedom of the press isn't known, so it would be rather OOC to call for such a thing.

Raikana was told a couple of times today by the GMs that she could print what ever she wanted in the paper but if we got complaints from players we would have to look into it and if we decided that there was a kind of harassment going on we would have to do something about it. Remember this is suppose to be a game and games are suppose to be fun.  You shouldn't have your fun at the expense of another player though. Also remember that you can't drag others into your RP if others don't want to participate in your RP. Also everyone should try to respect the wishes of other players. If another player has a reason they don't want something published you should try and respect that request.

= No free press.

If you only read my papers you will see that i respect everybody. Ask to any player....
You talked a lot but you only confirmed my words.

[Raikana]

For one thing given the settings and the type of government the Octrachy is such a thing as freedom of the press isn't known, so it would be rather OOC to call for such a thing.

That's it. Freedom is OOC! AHAHHAHAHAHAHAH!
oh my god.

[Raikana]

I would encourage any future papers to keep quiet about upcoming content and let the complaints come after the distribution as in real newspapers. Then if you find yourself at fault, a retraction can be printed in the following issue.

That will not solve the situation. The best would be to DON't do it.
As you heard from Sarva's words "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FREE PRESS" in that game. And, if there is no free press, all papers that are truly honest and that wish to make it right, CANNOT EXIST.

Only FALSE papers or some really CORRUPTED papers can exist. If you read the guidelines of the paper, you will find the 1° rule:

The Neutrality line
The Guilds & Traders Journal is meant to be a neutral voice. Every point of view is well accepted and, if polited, every idea will be eared and published. That's why the editors should be always aware to defend it indipendance, preventing it from falling in the hands of  power groups or guilds.

THAT IS THE FIRST RULE FOR A GOOD PAPER.
And this, i repeat, CAN'T be done here. Is just an illusion.

If i want to live in a REGIME, i have enough with the REAL world, in which this is normal. I don't need to be in a game for that... reality is enough bad.

And, Sarva, you think that i had fun ALONE making the paper? you are wrong. I had fun and, with me, MANY MANY MANY people. So you are not honest. You are just repeting the rules you have learned, like a parrot. You cannot say that publishing a news is HARASSMENT. This is totally wrong. But i don't hope you will understand, you are too concentrated in repeating the rules you have learned, with no time for THINKING, and ADAPTING the rules for the good of the comunity.

This is not to be Master. This is to be a ROBOT. (i'm master of classic roleplay games, like D&D, since a long time. I can ensure that a Master must be WAY MORE then a simple RULEBOOK)

[confused]

This is not to be Master. This is to be a ROBOT. (i'm master of classic roleplay games, like D&D, since a long time. I can ensure that a Master must be WAY MORE then a simple RULEBOOK)

Have been playing RPGs for decades and being the GM for most of the time for many campaigns in a number of genres I have come to learn what is good and bad game management, along with good and bad RPing. I can definitely say slam down the rule book on game mechanics and enforce it (well in a PC application game, very simple, it is enforced no matter what), though throw away the damn rule book when it comes to fleshing out for social interactions between the all characters of the game after simple game mechanics have been applied. If one ever bothered to look at hundreds of RPGs, source books, you find very few rules relating to social interactions, only to provide basic actions depending on circumstances of the encounter. The bulk of the social encounters comes from the players imagination to develop a full body conversion to the a rule or two that was applied for the encounter. In the PC game, this is not possible with NPCs, as there is no living breathing GM to take up the role for the NPC. Thus conversations with NPCs is largely governed by game mechanics. PC to PC interactions is very different to that involving NPCs. PC interactions still follow the RPing style as found in the traditional RPGs sessions.

Now for the newspaper, if IC information is available and known by some, then it definitely can be published. OOC information can't be published, unless the owner of the OOC information gives permission to make the OOC permission to be IC information. This would be typically be done as a journalist interviewing a character about the character itself.

People here are bitching at the decrease of RPing on the server, and the decrease of RPing players. They bitch so much about lack of RPing, and silly stupid IC stuff, that they stupidly end up chasing away good RPers from the server then wonder why RPing sucks even more afterwards.

The times I had the opportunity to RP in IC with Raikana, I had good enjoyable times, for she is a good RPer. It is disgusting and shameful that others bitch and moan pathetically to the GMs about IC information, and the GMs lacking common sense to do a proper investigation on whether the information published is IC or OOC. IC can be information obtained from any other character in game, that has obtained the "generally" OOC information via IC encounters. Simply declaring that the information is OOC is not enough, proof needs to be provided to show that the OOC information has not become IC information along the way with other characters.

Remember the old saying: A secret is only a secret, if no one else knows of the secret. As soon as another knows the secret, you relying on that persons trust and integrity to keep the secret. No one can guarantee that secret will remain only with the person, for circumstances can change over times, relationships can change, resulting in the secret being let out into the open.

The paragraph above applies to IC in game too. So if you consider something OOC, and spoken to someone in IC, it effectively not OOC any more even though the desire for the information still to be OOC.

So all I have to say, think before bitching about OOC and IC information when published or spoken of. Is OOC information really OOC information. Is IC information well known by others, if so definitely can be published.

I am sad that again another RPer has left due to stupid behaviour of players and GMs.

[Roled]

Oh this is such bad news! 

Raikana, I am so sorry you have gone. The paper was terrific, and Roled really enjoys/ ed getting to know you and rping with you.
You really added alot of energy to the game,

I hope you can figure out a way to come back....

I am sad, sad sad to see you go. 

Your Friend
Roled

[Talad]

Hi,
may I have a quote in here of the part of the paper which was considered OOC by another player and was asked not to be published and considered harassment?

If it's really so sensitive, send it to me via a personal message.

[Jilata]

I am playing for around 2 month now and I have to say the newspaper Raikana made was really good. And I still like it. And I don't get it why someone would ask OOC not to be in the news. Well your reputation might drop a bit when the other reads it and it wasn't something good. But see it like this. This is the chance for some more interesting RP....

Really I don't get why there are even people complaining about that. Yeah it might happen that I get drunk and destroy the tavern or something worse. And it might happen that it is in the next newspaper and people start talking about it. But that is life.. and I think this is what makes PS more realistic. There aren't people who don't have any fault in real live as well..

And one more thing. The news helped me especially in the beginning to get started. Because you get to know the most important things which happened. Things the people talk about. But when you don't know anyone, you can't really get to know those events. Well I am not sure how to explain it properly but maybe you get what I mean...

@Raikana I don't want to see you leave. If there is anything I could do for you, just tell me.

Jilata

[Urriro]

Like Jilata I play for around 4 month now and I enjoyed every Issue of the journal as I also enjoyed our RPs (Especially your little relaxing RP).
Jilata is right, when I do something IC I can't say OOC you haven't seen or hear it.
@Sarva The rule about harassment is good but cant be applied to a newspaper.In RL some countries have equal in they law. But it will not prevent the publishing of news. When I drive drunk and kill someone with my car it will be published in many newspapers and I can't do anything against it.

@Raikana I hope you haven't deleted your account yet. As I said IG to you, take a little break and please come back. Your friends will miss you really. If you decision is that you will not comeback I can understand it but I would be sad about it, because a week without the Journal is a bad week.

[BoevenF]

Raikana,
first thing I don't know the details, but...
You are a good RP, and you surely had a good tool to generate good RP as well.
Let's face it. This game is solely based on social interactions, at the moment. We are players from all over the world, with different languages and cultures, and quite different ages. It must be clear to anyone that everything said can be misinterpreted. That surely happens, and since we are here to play, we need to be very open to any change we are obliged, being from a mechanical rule imposed by the game, or being a GM rule of interaction. Never let the anger take the helm, it's useless. We suppose to be a community, the GMs too. We can discuss, we need to discuss, for the sake of the game and the fun. I'm glad to hear that you badly wanted the freedom to RP speech, and I'm with you. What the heck, from my point of view, you had more than a choice: asking safely about the problem, raising the question to the top and firmly explain your position. Every rule need to be quietly pondered, with open mind. That's part of the fun. If the response was against you, you could RP a changing behaviour, that's for sure. Ever searching the fun. Or you could leave us alone without your precious support, because of a sparkle of anger. No more fun.
I'm sorry to see that you seem to have chosen the easy way, as dozens of players before you.

A character is only a bunch of data, can be created in a couple of minutes. Think about it, we are waiting your help, to have fun together.

A friendly neighborhood Klyros

Edit: I need to add this... (You Gotta) Fight for Your Right (to Party) - Beastie Boys

[Sarva]

@ confused Note in this case we didn't even talk about the specifics of what this dispute involves or even what the matter involved so there is no way to know if this involved OOC or IC information. The GMs only discussed general principals with Raikana and noted that there could be an issue of harassment and that the feelings of other players should be taken into account when deciding what to print in the paper. As was stated we are a community and the feelings of everyone in the community should be taken into account.

To me it seemed like Raikana wanted a blanket approval to print what ever she wanted in the paper not matter what the feelings of anyone else might be. The GMs are not in a position to offer such a blanket approval. As I said if someone starts feeling picked on and doesn't want to be in the paper any mroe and if a player starts feeling their game experience is being ruined  by always having their actions show up in the paper then they could feel harassed and under that situation the GMs would have to look into the situation. Giving a blanket approval to print anything Raikana might want could open the door to someone being stalked by reporters from the paper and I'm sure not may here would like that as part of their game experience. Just because nothing like this has already happened doesn't mean it can't happen in the future. when talking to a player in a situation like this the GMs have to try and anticipate the worst things that could possibly happen and respond accordingly. For this reason the GMs can't say Yes you have the blanket ability to always publish what ever you want in the paper.

And I'll point out again Raikana was told she could keep doing the paper printing the paper how ever she wanted. She was just told that if we got complaints  we would have to look into it and it could be possible that the situation might be looked at as a form of harassment. Raikana decided on her own that this was an unacceptable situation, that if she didn't have total freedom of the press then she was going to stop doing the paper.