How to make a good MMORPG

[Darkanan]

I have played lots of MMORPGs let me just give you my insight into how to make a good one. This is going to be a long post but I\'m at my boring Programming job and I\'m sick of looking at code and want to take a break. Heres my insight guys taking a little bit from the best MUDs and MMORPGs to ever exist.


Races - Have about 10 different races that people can be. Each will have different starting stats maybe different night visions and different numbers of limbs for different armour types (ex. Centaur would need horse armour on top of human armor)

Stats - The best skills/Stat system I have ever seen has been this one. You start with basic stats based on what race you choose. Each race gains certain stats quicker. For example Elves gain Intelligence and Wisdom faster than Giants would and thus are better magic users.
There are 6 Stats:
1.) Strength - How much capacity you can carry, how strong your attack is (physical melee attack)
2.) Constitution - Hit Points. The higher the more HP you have. For each Con point give 10 hp or something like that
3.) Charisma - This is mainly for Rogues and assassins. Your charisma is your stealth in a way. The higher it is the better you can steal and Back stab.
4.) Intelligence - This is the strenght of your magic spells
5.) Wisdom - the higher this is the MOre MP you have, also the higher the better success rate of landing a magic attack
6.) Dexterity - The higher this is the better landing rate of melee attacks also can parry more attacks.

Classes and Sub-Classes:

You already have them

Player Killing:
This is the most crucial aspect of a game. You must allow PKing. There are a few differnet ways around this. You can first of all take one route that a lot of games did to offer both PVP worlds and NOn-PVP by having two different servers but you will soon see that most people prefer PVP. NOW, Dark Ages did a great job with this idea. YOu can have three kingdoms everyone must choose to be from one of the three You are safe mostlikely when you are inside of your kingdom but once you leave your doors you are not safe any more. That is one way. But the best way is to allow PKing everywhere except for one safe area in each town like the bank or something.

How to Regulate PKing:
You would be suprised at how well people in the game regulate PKing but one good way is to make an NPC police . If you PK someone you become an OUtlaw people can thus hunt you down and kill you one time and they will not be deemed an outlaw. Also have NPC police in each town. If an outlaw comes within their range they will be put in jail for 5 minutes. When you are in jail you are vulnerable to anyone attacking you which brings into another aspect guilds/kingdoms protecting thier friends in jail. It adds a different layer of depth to the game.

Speaking of Depth that is the most importnat aspect of a game: Too many games are just powerleveling and training and thats it. You can\'t do shit with a high level except go around and kill younger people there has to be something to keep people attached to a game. There has to be something. One good way is the kingdom idea and to have people join kingdoms or you can just give people the option to join a kingdom. Put the kingdoms in a constant powerstruggle and let them build armies and such that will keep people coming back but there must be further layers of depth in the game. And that is where questing comes. If you make the theme of the game something like to become an Immortal. This is the best idea I have ever seen in any game unfortunately it was practically impossible to become immortal. Make there an ultimate quest to become an immortal and allow immortals sort of extra powers. You can make it a secret class if you wish. And a secret race make dragons a secret race so a dragon immortal is in a way invulernable. IF you set it up so that the entire quests takes about a year to complete including of course that you would need a high level just to undertake it that will allow for people to constantly be playing this game. Guilds are a must but this game already has them.

Quests are a must also and this game already has them as I see. But I think there need to become smoe things to add depth to this game so it doesn\'t die out when you get to a high level.

Darkanan
cjtign@wm.edu

[AendarCallenlasse]

The idea of a \"good\" mmorpg is based on individual likes and dislikes.  What you have provided is your idea of a good mmorpg.  I for one don\'t agree with your layout.  This game is being made for more than yourself.

[Fanomatic2000]

I agree. Your \"perfect\" system focuses too much on battles and PKing than real roleplaying.
This is a MMORPG and not some kind of hack n\' slash a la DAOC.

Well, taste is different, sadly but true.

EDIT: Since when did \"charisma\" become the main attribute for a rogue? Rogues doesn\'t have need for charisma since they often operate alone. \"Dexterity\" is the most important thing for a rogue since it\'s used to pick locks, escape etc.
Charisma is more for leader-types like Paladins.

[Kuiper7986]

you base your ideas a lot like FF11, I like it , but for the Pk\'ing thing...ehh I\'m not confident that the Devs will agree with you on that, but its up to the Devs not me.

But I do like your stats, like Strength, Constitution, dexterity, wisdom, stamina, vitality, intelect, and that sorta stuff......

[paxx]

Originally posted by Fanomatic2000
I agree. Your \"perfect\" system focuses too much on battles and PKing than real roleplaying.
This is a MMORPG and not some kind of hack n\' slash a la DAOC.

Well, taste is different, sadly but true.

EDIT: Since when did \"charisma\" become the main attribute for a rogue? \"Dexterity\" is the most important thing for a rogue since it\'s used to pick locks, escape etc.
Charisma is more for leader-types like Paladins.

I have a couple of comments, 1st you look at the top 10 or even the top 50 RPG?s in both print and computer formats and you see a trend, very detailed combat system, very simple or vague social system.
Is this to say that they are unimportant, no, just that for the games they are not the focus or that the game enforces them in some way that the players are not able to dictate directly.

As for what is an RPG it is all types of things, unlike the narrow view that some people give it, it is any game where a player dictates the actions of a character indirectly through some degree of chance. Chance is where RPGs and action games vary.

As for hack and slash?that has been part of RPGing since it?s first published examples.

On Charisma for a rouge thing?depends what a rouge is?in AD&D 2nd ed a bard and thief where both rouges. In classic adventure movies the rouge is usually tolerated because he is liked for some reason despite his/her shady disposition.

Lets take Han Solo the classic movie rouge?I would say he was more charismatic then he was dexterous.  

Fanomatic2000 I am not ragging on you to say you are wrong, simply to say there is more to RPGing.

A few years ago I was in the (no hack and slash school of thought) now I am more whatever the group has fun with.

In making a game you try to focus on a genre and target audience. For PS we are targeting more of the Role Player as opposed to combat types because it is what we want and not many games in this area focus on. And we wish they did.

If combat was the main thing in this game?then it will be done a lot sooner though :-)

But don?t get into the trap of saying an RPG is this and not this cause in reality it is very broad, and even some RPGs have no chance involved?they just are not very popular.

[Fanomatic2000]

Well, you can\'t compare a movie-star with a D&D hero. Just like in most movies, the heroes in Starwars were immortal, and they didn\'t have the same conditions as a \"real\" hero.
Sure a rogue can be a leader, but charisma isn\'t his main-attribute.
To say that charisma is the same as stealth is completely wrong. Charisma is how strong your personality is, and how easy you can manipulate the persons around you. It means that charisma is the main-attribute for politicians, Paladins, Bards and so on.
I mean, practically you can become an assassin with extremely high charisma, but it would be better if you raised your dexterity (your ability to sneak, dodge and hit)
I\'m comparing to NWN (which uses AD&D rules).

About the term \"RPG\" you\'re right when you\'re saying that different people has a different taste when it comes to RPG.
Sure, I cannot say what a RPG is, because it\'s different depending on what person you ask, but why did you name runescape the-game-that-shall-not-be-named then? Who are you to say that \"Ronescape sucks\", and \"Ronescape isn\'t real RPG\"? Taste is different isn\'t it?

[paxx]

What are you using to define rogue? Oh, and sorry for the misspelling rouge and rogue always gets me.

Rogue by the dictionary is as follows.

1.   An unprincipled, deceitful, and unreliable person; a scoundrel or rascal.
2.    One who is playfully mischievous; a scamp.
3.   A wandering beggar; a vagrant.
4.   A vicious and solitary animal, especially an elephant that has separated itself from its herd.
5.   An organism, especially a plant, that shows an undesirable variation from a standard.


For movies and games, I have to say I use the first definition. But again we are arguing semantics. You are defining rogue in combat, and I am defining them socially. You look across the board and dependant on their (focus) you have their primary stats.

Now if you said ?thief? then yes charisma is pretty pointless. ?assassin? again not needed. ?Bard? yes, ?fence? yes, spy ?really probable?, scout ?not really?, con artist ?really important??

Hell, in some cases and game systems I would say intelligence is more important then dex?but this is not a class based game so in reality it is pointless for this game.

 Ack, you just added your RP statement. The game that shall not be named ?Rune Scape or what ever it is, is not my choice. It was the game that will not be named before I was around here and I think it was added cause it was being compared to this so much that the devs got sick of hearing it?but I could be wrong.

As far as NWN it uses D&D rules or D&D 3rd ED and a modified form of those at that. Rune scape I only played for a few minutes and stopped so I really can?t comment on what it is or was, other then to say, it seemed like an RPG to me. Not a particularly good one or the type I am interested in, but an RPG.

Most of the D&D lines of video games even take combat over Role Playing but can anyone really say that the grandfather of the genre is not really an RPG???

Anyway?what I am saying is RPGs is not a narrow Genre at all, it?s not even about opinion, it is about that there are many different types of RPGs that focus on many different things.

Our game will focus more one playing the role of a character more them most, not as much as some.  

[Fanomatic2000]

I meant \"rogue\" as a thief, an assassin or a highwayman. The reason a bard is often a \"rogue\" in other games is because many RPGs focuses on battle. I mean, what should a bard do? Play monsters to death?
Therefore the term \"bard\" became the same as \"factotum\". A person who can sneak, pick locks, fight and so on. In PS there is no classes, and you don\'t have to put your life in danger so there is nothing saying that a bard is a rogue.
Intelligence is what you use when you pick locks, how fast you learn skills and spells . It\'s up to the player what he/she thinks is the best skill, sneak or pick locks.

Oops, back to the subject...

[Darkanan]

Its all relative boys.

[Fanomatic2000]

About PK the main problem is called \"griefers\".
Some people seem to enjoy ruining the game for others. They kill people without reason just to piss them off. PK will in my opinion ruin the athmosphere, and it will make people focus more on survival than on RP.
Why add a PK-police if you want PK? Why would anybody kill another PC if they know that they\'re going to be killed if they do so?
PK *will* lead to hatred, and that\'s something I don\'t want in a game. Everything will be about revenge. ie. \"You kill me, I kill you, and If you kill me again, I will kill you again\" and \"I\'m gonna report you to my clan so that they kill you every time they see you\".
And how fun is it when you can\'t trust nobody? I don\'t wanna join a party when I know that my \"friends\" may be PKs.
There is always griefers, and there will always be.

[paxx]

I have to agree with Fanomatic2000 here?the PvP/Pk/PT issue is simple at the moment. If it can cause grief to a player?it won?t be in the game. if the player decides it is fun or better to enter into a situation where he could be Pked or whatever then it was done by the player and he or she can sleep in the bed that the player made.

We plan to give guilds very many options in how they are run and what they can do, as such they will be more then a group of players helping each other, there will be options and benefits to choices made, as well as drawbacks.


At no point in the game will a player be able to PK another that did not enter into a situation where it would come up.

For those of you who think this is negotiable?it is not at this point in anyway. The Pro PK types need to come up with a really good system that would win us Devs over.

We feel the current system that we have planed is the best situation for this game.

Not to get off topic but this is very much the same as adding Guns into the game?there would really have to be a good reason and system for it, and on the Gun issue it is even tougher cause I don?t know of a single Dev that likes the idea.

[Darkanan]

Guns in a fantasy Roleplaying game. Never heard of that one before. I don\'t like the idea.

And with the PKing I sorta already gave you guys a flawless system. I\'ve seen it in action and it works perfectly. You can even check it out. Check out a MUD called Merentha most of the ideas came from that game and absolutely have never had a random PK and on top of that they usually only have about 1-2 pks a day maybe unless theres a war.

[paxx]

Not to belittle your system, but as it is, effects of death are not discussed, amount of players are not discussed, but assuming it is DAoC for most things.
1st we will probably only support one server, unlike other MMORPGS, the reason is one will be hard enough to support as is.

2nd all the players are on the same side so to speak, the goals of this game are not the same a DAoC, while I like that concept a lot and tried to go with that style?we will not.

3rd Guilds will act in a way as nations?if your guild is into PvP you will get a lot of PvP, if not you won?t.

So it is not just a system?DAoC is a good one, but a reason and at this time there is no reason, and I doubt there might even be one till way after production, but PvP is not the focus of the game.

On the flip side, the high end game is a very important area that few games (none so far in my opinion) do really well. That is a content issue more then anything. Simply in most games to do anything productive at high levels you need to take 100+ of your friends along with you. So most of the time you are just waiting around.

But we have a while to wait for that.

The real issue is not that we won?t have PvP we will to a large extent, it is more the pure Pk aspect. And honestly I have not seen a system that I like as of yet. Shadowbane has a good system?but too easily abused unless you are only within your Guild, (the focus of that game) as this game is not like that?we won?t work things that way.

Shadowbane is one of those odd games that has many innovations but not a good overall package.

[Darkanan]

I Put a detailed system up in the PVP section. I\'ve never played Dark Ages so I don\'t know what their system is like. Although I\'ve read about the game and its unique constant war system but thats not to realistic and wouldn\'t do it for me. I know what your getting at with the whole guild is nation thing. One server by the way isn\'t that going to be mightly laggy once you get over 500-1000 people playing. It would be cool if you could get a few different servers and test them out one NO PVP, another free range on PVP and another moderated PVP. but whatever I understand your conundrum with being able to get the servers.

[Fanomatic2000]

It might or might not be laggy with one server, but that\'s one of the problems a MMORPG has to encounter.
Project-Entropia can take 1000 000 people on the same server btw.

EDIT: Correction: \"Should be able\" to take 1000 000 people on the same server