Author Topic: pvp and it's effect on the planeshift world (for the very, very, very long term)  (Read 1089 times)

davante

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Allthough I know this will be very hard to make (and knowing how some people don't like pvp for obvious reasons) I would still like to hear what people think about this idea because I think it would suit planeshift very well.  

First of all I think killing someone in pvp and dying within maybe a week should make a character go to the death realm. The reason for this might be that a part of the soul that should go to Dakkru is still with the murderer in this time or something like that. This results in a better "punishment" for a pvper. Especially once the death realm is as big as it will be in the end. PVP being likely to have a "heavy punishment" is very important for the rest of my idea.

In the long run I would love to see that in planeshift a large group of player can really unfluence their surroundings. This means that if a player would be able to motivate a lot of people to start a war, or take over a city like it would be possible in the real world, it should be possible. I know that this seems like something that would make the game very annoying because you'd get killed all the time but think this could be prevented because of the following things.

At the end cities will have npc guards who patrol the city they are stationed in. These guard should be present in such numbers that a player killing another player would be very likely to encounter one, resulting in his arrest or death. They would also be patrolling outside the cities to make sure players who pvp there are likely to get caught, unless they plan and time their attack very well. If there are multiple attacks in an area, this should automaticly increase the number of guards patrolling there (overtime going down again). This would make individual players extremely likely to die within the period of time, making sure the threat of having to spend a lot of time in the death realm is very real. Also, characters that have killed many times could get send to a different part of the death realm (from wich they do not know the way out or from where it takes much longer to get out) which would be a special place like people believe there were in the Hades.

This would at the very least make people who really want to pvp (without getting the annoying death thing all the time) make groups (of maybe 4-5 players). These groups would be able to keep away the guards at first but should move around fast before to many guards would be present, making sure they won't kill at the same place for long (since that's annoying and not very realistic). There should also be a bounty system where players who have this permission can kill these pvpers to collect a bounty. This should also work for guilds. When a very large groups (which is necessary to withstand the guards for a longer time) is ravaging through a province certain or multiple guilds could get a mission to defeat them and collect a bounty.

This should make sure that killing other players sucks unless you make sure that you are smart and take time to prepare, or are part of a very well organized group. This way it is like in the real world: not something you would randomly do all the time.

A large, well organized group of players would however be able to annoy people for some time. In a while this will get harder though, as players would unite and their bounty would increase (making up for lost time and gold of others). To make sure these groups can actually exist there may be some fortresses which can be taken over. Npc guards will guard it, but once it’s taken over by another group of players all characters in it are killed. (Making sure an evil group would be organized enough to have players from all kind of timezones to help defend it when necessary. These castles would require the evil characters to log out there, because they would otherwise spalm in a place where guards could be present to arrest them. When these castles aren’t placed to much near cities it would balance the whole thing out, since only some players would take the time and risk to really go evil.
To really finish it of cities could be made in a way that they can be conquered. This would require the attackers to kill both all of the city guards (of which more could spalm in case of an attack) as well as players who join the fight to help the defense. There should also be a timer that spalms forces that will come to aid the defenders from throughout the land. Making such a thing require a huge  amount of organization and players. Once taken a city would work as normal, but give the leading guild some income. They must however also spend this to keep allies who may come to their defense as other guilds and npc guards regularly attack the city to take it back.

Now I know this would probably mean a city would probably be never taken over. It would probably also mean that it’s very probable that a guild who owns a city will lose it to the npc’s quite quikly, sending it’s members straight into the death realm for quite some time. But that’s the point. Being evil and pvping should be possible, when done right profitable, but always very, very hard.

Anyway: I think this might really add to this game since the evil character could actually be evil. It will also make pvping possible, but something that takes time, and preparation, making sure it isn't even an option to do randomly.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 03:44:09 pm by davante »

Tessra

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I think your neglecting one thing. Not all who PvP are evil, nor do they wish to be.

Also, by putting such an emphasis on PvP, you are eliminating those people who actually roleplay effective villains.  Don't get me wrong, I love PvP, it's one of my favorite aspects of the game. I train to be able to duel, nothing more.  BUT... 90% of the great bad guys, Ditem and the mutant klyros, Marsuveus, Kavalar, and a bunch I won't mention because I'm not sure if they are "out" as baddies yet, are untrained characters of people who have trained mains.  Very few of the "bad guys" are actually trained mains.  As people have said time and again, it's hard being bad.  Lots of godmodding goody two shoes make it impossible for them to actually get anything done, or they just get mage spammed by a mob of concerned citizens.  Even a coordinated group of villains would have trouble taking any tower/castle/city run by NPCs without having PLed, and I just don't think we should force them to do that.

Actually, I think we should force the PLing goody two shoes to roleplay at a decent level of power and skill... you know, one that falls short of "only Talad or Chuck Norris can best me."

Also, it's more credible to others if you grow in power slowly over time.  First kill rats, then noobs, then klyros, and eventually work your way up to more powerful creatures ~ Miomai

Aramara Meibi

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Actually, I think we should force the PLing goody two shoes to roleplay at a decent level of power and skill... you know, one that falls short of "only Talad or Chuck Norris can best me."

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Caraick

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I can cite off the top of my head at least a dozen instances of PvP that have occurred within the past several weeks that had absolutely nothing to do with a designated "evil" character.  Oftentimes, you'll see duels of honor take place between two "good" characters who simply have a disagreement, or you may see a clash between two characters over an object or person of mutual interest, nothing says that one of them has to be evil.  In fact, I'd go as far to venture that the majority of PvP's take place between two characters, neither one of them evil.

If anything, I'm just emphasizing Tessra's good points here.  Being one of the untrained "baddies" here, I can speak from a level of experience on the subject.  I wouldn't count myself as a "great" RPer, but what I strive to do with my "baddie" alt (Marsuveus) is to create and write a character who is most certainly evil, and is enjoyable for others to RP with, seeing as there's always a shortage of villains, and always an excess of "goody-two shoes"  That being said, as Marsuveus, I've had to decline countless /challenges in the midst of RP's, and told the characters in question that I would welcome any sort of RP attack on the character, but I'm not going to do it by the PvP game mechanics.  I've never gone or intended to train Marsuveus' stats, especially in light of the current difficulties of the training system. 

Another thing that Tessra makes a good point of here, and that I referenced above, is that it's hard being bad.  Because of that shortage that I referenced earlier, most times that I've got Marsuveus logged in, I'm dealing with a few sets of /tells asking me if Marsuveus could be involved in this RP, or if this character could come get their revenge, etc.  I have no issues with RPing with people who ask me, not a single issue at all, I'm merely trying to point out what Tessra said here, that this usually translates into Marsuveus being swamped by onlookers who want to join in on the RP most times that I attempt to start up a "casual" RP with him.  Many of these players who try and jump in on the RP after hearing it in OOCly in /tells from someone involved have comparably, and subjectively, very high stats, and certainly RP their characters accordingly. 

Now, please don't misunderstand, I have no issue with players having high stats, and RPing themselves as extremely powerful warriors; my main Caraick has fairly high stats, and I role-play him as a fairly powerful rogue-type warrior.  However, Marsuveus, for anyone who's met or encountered him in-game is not RP-ed as a powerful warrior, by any means.  He's a Ynwnn, and I've written him as being a slight bit taller than the average for his race, and he stands around 2.5 meters, meaning his main physical threat in a swordfight is just his sheer size and strength; which combined with some careful planning, and cunning, makes him a reasonable threat to your average citizen, to say the least.

My main point here is just to emphasize the importance of what Teshia pointed out earlier: it really is hard to be bad sometimes.  That doesn't mean it's not a heck of a lot of fun at times, but when you're surrounded by god-modding goody two shoes who think they can own any villain that walks their way with their new nuke-everybody glyph, it's not very fun at all, and it's tough to get out of situations like that.

So, that's my thoughts on the matter, good post, Tessra.

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davante

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That's totaly true of course. But a duel is known to be a duel. That's something that should of course co-exist. What I describe is something I also wouldn't aim for at this point in time. But something that might work good for later on. When this game is closer to a finish I think there will be many more players who will level more (since the combat system will be improved) and have alts. At this point of time people are likely to level their alts. I do however understand your concern. My intention is not to make being evil about pvp, but to make pvp match the roleplay. If no one were to level their evil characters it might be possible to have a pvp skill where characters attacking other characters in pvp while not in a duel get a stat boost that brings them closer to the level the other player is. This stat boost would be higher for people who have (wrongfully) killed or attacked more characters. This way the character would quikly match other players in a fight, while still having to level for pve. At the end fighting animals is very different from fighting people in the normal world too.


Mask

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First off, I think it would be a nice idea for the more experienced players to maybe blog about roleplaying, pvp and theresuch here on the forum. Maybe this could be bundled with some kind of "School of Roleplay" and reduce the amout of reoccuring discussions on "Being evil" and PVP-related topics, and maybe it would help the RP a great deal.

I settle mostly with Tessra and Caraick here. As far as my little in-game experience goes, most of these issues spring from the OOC causes, let it be godmodding players or (currently) unbalanced rules/game mechanics. These issues should be addressed seperately.

davante, PVP just means player versus player. It does not implicate any form of duel in the sense of a duel. It could be an ambush in a dark alley, a brawl in a tavern or someone dropping pies at another character. To make a believable game world, it is necessary to make a certain amount of PVP possible which does not break the balance of power while maintaining an easy access to new characters and players.
What you are addressing here is not the issue of PVP, it is the issue of "balance of power" if I understood you correctly. When I speak of balance of power, I mean the relation between player behaviour, player interaction and game mechanics: players who played for a long time tend to have stronger characters when it comes to numbers and equipment (rightfully so!) and also more knowledge about the setting (this depends on how many information is accessable by new players - as for PlaneShift, it is difficult to play a scientist who has lived her or his whole life in Hydlaa as a new player: there is simply not enough information around OOCly since most of it needs to be obtained ICly. This leads to difficulties in fleshing out character backgrounds or RP a believable character.) Players with longer game experience also have connections to other players (Alliances, Guilds, friendships between characters and so on) which make them althogether relatively strong. Newer players or players whose game style differs from the majority of other players are usually very weak when it comes to numbers (crunch) and background knowledge and social connections (fluff).

Or, in short: balance of power = new players/characters are weaker than older players/characters because of crunch and fluff. A new character/player that is suddenly stronger than she or he should be is endangering the balance of power. Example: Godmodding ("I wield a sword of [Insert random endboss here]-destruction. I hit you. I do 10^10 dmg") which is an extremer version of a rule-break (not letting your character get hit in a roleplayed fight despite the fact that your opponent is way better in fighting than you, crunch-wise).

If one only applies the balance of power to a game, this could e.g. end in older players taking advantage of newer players to the point that it becomes very difficult for a new player to progress beyond a certain threshold. This could be poison to a MMOPG since it could tear a community apart. On the other hand, it could become a thriving force behind the game, and I think EVE takes said approach (see this wikipedia article).

On the other hand, if you restrict it the balance of power too much, this could lead to the same effect: the game becomes uninteresting to a part of the community, this time the more experienced players. Sure, they can start new characters, then again, why should they?

Your idea of punishing PVP in general falls in latter category. Remember, you talk about game mechanics here. And heavy punishment for PVP, crunch wise, might not be what the community is looking for. I don't want my dunrken dwarf be punished heavily because he started a brawl in Kada-El's - sure, he might be thrown in jail or even expelled from the city, but that is fluff and a whole different issue. And if my paladin finally manages to kill the assassin that has killed his master, I don't want him to be punished by the mechanics either just because he just killed someone. And neither my vagabond after he raided a merchant's convoy. The mechanics support the overall balance of the gameplay, the balance of power. I want to be able to play spies, vagabonds and assassins as well as paladins, cooks and healers. PlaneShift features a system that requires to understand the power of the community. Somebody killed your character, or you want a bounty on someone's head? Go to a guild that does bounty hunting, work out a contract. Or contact a "good" alliance with the information about a really, really evil character. Then watch what happens. Be sure to have the right shader settings so you could enjoy the fireworks.
Now, try to raid a merchant on the other hand is really difficult. You have strong characters on patrol in no time because there is a challege and, if you are unlucky, you will be getting godmodded.

As it stands, I see no need to punish PVP at the moment. What the community could to do improve the situation is:
  • Found a "School of Roleplay" with blogs and discussions.
  • Behave maturely and polite. Maintain the separation between OOC and IC. Keep within the borders that are set by the crunch.
  • Plan bigger events or plots in a cooperative manner. This could be done with the help of the GM and Dev team (if latter do have the time: do some "Plothooks of the Month"). In general, keep the game world dynamic. And yes, this means arguments, discussions and lots of work.
  • OOC events, something along the lines of "Good description day" and "Roleplay Awards" to encourage players to improve their RP.
  • Help with the development. Apply. Work on the wiki. Post suggestions.
  • And remember: Report a bug a day, it keeps the crash away!
It's just an idea, it might contain nonsense until proper sources are given.

First rule of programming: Documentation, Documentation, Documentation.

Tessra

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Mask:  :thumbup:
Also, it's more credible to others if you grow in power slowly over time.  First kill rats, then noobs, then klyros, and eventually work your way up to more powerful creatures ~ Miomai

Caraick

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As it stands, I see no need to punish PVP at the moment. What the community could to do improve the situation is:
  • Found a "School of Roleplay" with blogs and discussions.
  • Behave maturely and polite. Maintain the separation between OOC and IC. Keep within the borders that are set by the crunch.
  • Plan bigger events or plots in a cooperative manner. This could be done with the help of the GM and Dev team (if latter do have the time: do some "Plothooks of the Month"). In general, keep the game world dynamic. And yes, this means arguments, discussions and lots of work.
  • OOC events, something along the lines of "Good description day" and "Roleplay Awards" to encourage players to improve their RP.
  • Help with the development. Apply. Work on the wiki. Post suggestions.
  • And remember: Report a bug a day, it keeps the crash away!


A few of these really have potential, if not all of them.  I think the implementation of having OOC events would be in line with the new types of events like the Dev Q&A sessions.  Love the idea about an RP school, would love to see that taken somewhere.  All are very good ideas,  :thumbup: indeed
Hey look kids, it's the antichrist Marsuveus!
What? Doesn't he just look huggable? Aw, c'mon, give him a hug.


Alele Pessat

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"Plothooks of the Month" sounds rad. That's a neat idea.

novacadian

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Great ideas one and all and great tone to this thread. Hope some of the suggestions fine some traction.

- Nova